The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy

Good afternoon. We are ready to open our meeting this afternoon. The first item on the agenda is questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Closing the Menai Bridge

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the economic impact of closing the Menai bridge? OQ58714

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. Officials are working closely with Cyngor Sir Ynys Môn and other stakeholders to monitor and understand the economic impact on the town of Menai Bridge specifically as well as surrounding areas.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. I have kept in close contact—as close as possible—with businesses, and the whole community of course, since the decision was taken to close the bridge. They all want assurances that everything will be done to reopen the bridge as soon as possible. I would welcome any news from the Minister on that and the work to reopen early in the new year.
But, in terms of the impact on business, businesses are very consistent in what they tell me—they tell me that trade is down some 40 per cent, and more in some instances. People aren't going shopping or going for a cuppa in the way that they used to. So, can I first of all ask for financial support for them? We need to think how we can help them to get them through this period and the pressure, which is not of their own making, of course. But, of course, there is no reason for people to stay away. As much as this causes problems at certain times of the day, and as much as we need a third bridge to ensure the resilience of the crossing in the longer term, people can travel to Menai Bridge and to Beaumaris and so on, as they please. So, will the Minister, first of all, ensure that there is no sign saying 'Menai Bridge Closed' anywhere, and that 'Pont ar Gau' or 'Suspension Bridge Closed' are the signs? And will he look at starting a marketing campaign, perhaps through Visit Wales or other organisations, to encourage people to travel to Anglesey, to Menai Bridge, Beaumaris and so on, for leisure and shopping as they normally would?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I think some of those are for my colleague the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, in terms of the signage, but I think it's a fair point to make clear that the island isn't closed—there is still the opportunity to go and, indeed, that businesses in Menai Bridge themselves are open and available as usual. And I would say in the list of places on the island that he's mentioned, I've been to all of them with my family and enjoyed being a part of the local economy when we've done so.
So, yes, I do recognise that there are real issues to understand what we can do with other agencies, including the council and, indeed, local elected representatives to understand what is actually happening as well as being really positive about the fact that all those towns and places are accessible, open and available, whilst we carry out the essential work, from a safety point of view, on the suspension bridge—the old, old Telford bridge—by making sure that there is a safe and easy passage for people to get on and off the island until then.
And we are considering the request for financial—. That's a little more challenging. We want to work with stakeholders to understand what we can do and, indeed, I think there was a constructive meeting earlier this week between the Deputy Minister and local stakeholders—I believe you took part in it—to try to understand what is being done in terms of progress as well as the immediate circumstances that businesses themselves are facing.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Like others, I too was shocked at the sudden closure of the Menai bridge and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that there were repairs needed to that bridge long before the closure came. Now, there's the potential for this to be closed for up to four months. The closure in itself is impacting already on my local constituents in Aberconwy. Many work in the businesses there and work in various other businesses in Ynys Môn, and a lot have family there. The business owners who I speak to, who work on the island, are saying that the continued uncertainty about the status of the bridge is causing them now, as Rhun has quite adequately pointed out, a massive drop in revenue. So, this closure will affect people commuting to work and school and will be a blow for hauliers and families alike, with places in Aberconwy feeling now cut off from their neighbouring communities.
Another aspect has been about the other bridge, because I know there were some problems there the other week, where there were some concerns about whether that would actually be closed in terms of stormy weather and things. So, how can you also ensure that any messaging you put out, which Rhun has asked for, spreads more across other constituencies that are also affected so that they know that business on the island is still taking place? But also, more importantly, how soon can we get that bridge opened so that people travelling to work there are not in the situation that they are now? Thanks.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think there were two questions there. There were a number of points that weren't questions, I think. But look, the reality is, in response to the constituency Member Rhun ap Iorwerth, I've made clear that, yes, we are working with local stakeholders, including elected representatives, including the council, including representatives from businesses that we know are being affected by a difference in footfall. We want to have the message that the island is certainly open for business, and to be really clear about that, though I recognise that that isn't just for the island; it's for people who move on and off the island in the normal course of business. So, yes, we do of course want to take account of—.
And I think your second actual question was about how soon the repairs will be completed, and that's a matter that the Deputy Minister is engaging with local stakeholders on, to understand what our experts are advising us on, and then we can see how quickly we can undertake and complete the repairs. It's in all of our interests for the suspension bridge to be repaired, for it to be safe and secure for everyone who uses it, and that is absolutely our objective. But I do think that it will be a matter for the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to give updates on that, rather than me trying to assume a range of his responsibilities. And I do believe he's intending on making a visit to the area in the coming immediate week. So, I think that will give a greater insight, and, hopefully, greater visibility on the steps we are taking, and the fact that the island is very much open for business.

Advanced Technology in the Defence Sector

Jack Sargeant AC: 2. How will the Welsh Government support the development of advanced technology in the defence sector in north Wales? OQ58704

Vaughan Gething AC: Thanks for the question. North Wales has a strong manufacturing base and is home to some of our most productive companies, not least in the aerospace and defence sector. We continue to support these businesses in their creation of high-quality, high-skilled and well-paid jobs, and that includes the plans we are leading on for the development of an advanced technology research centre, in partnership with the Ministry of Defence.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank the Minister for that answer? You will have seen the recent statement from the Minister for Defence Procurement about the Defence Electronics and Components Agency site in Sealand, and, of course, your plans for the advanced technology research centre are something I've spoken about a number of times in this Chamber. Can I ask you for some particulars of how the Welsh Government can support the development of an advanced technology research sector, with the support of the UK Government?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think this is a good example of an area where, actually, the Welsh and UK Governments are able to do things constructively together. We're taking a lead on a range of the development areas, with the site itself, with some of the investment we even made in getting that ready. We need to work on what the future development partnership will look like. But we do know there will be opportunities here, because Minister Chalk's recent statement reconfirmed plans to go ahead with this development, and there's a point about skills in the wider region, significant employers and their interest in the product that will be taken, but also we've already appointed to take those matters forward in stages technical consultants, who are progressing with the master-planning of the preferred site. And we've concluded another round of detailed industry engagement, which, again, gives us more insight to help inform the design of the building and, actually, the jobs that will take place in and around it, and not just the centre of course, but the impact it will have on the wider economy.

Darren Millar AC: Like Jack Sargeant, I welcome very much these developments in north-east Wales, and feel very much that we ought to be doing much more in Wales to try and attract as much procurement opportunities as possible for the defence sector to our nation. What action are you taking, in conjunction with the UK Government, to try and ensure that Welsh businesses actually get a better share of the defence spending and procurement that's currently taking place at a UK Government level?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, that actually depends on choices that UK Ministers make, of course, in terms of some of the settings they make, but it also underscores why this development is important, and it does require us to work in partnership across a range of areas. And we're very clear, in our regular conversations with wider defence sector companies, but also ministerial colleagues in the UK Government, that we want to see a local return on procurement spend. Of course, it's a matter of public record that there's interest in future procurement around helicopters as well. So, we're very interested in supporting not just headline companies but the broader supply chain in getting as much work as possible. And that's why our responsibilities in the area of skills, to make sure the right workforce is there, is a key part of it. But I think we have a very good offer, not just in north-east Wales, but across the country, and I'm certainly keen that we get a good share of future procurement spend and the good jobs that that will bring with it.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The questions today are to the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, with questions first of all from the Conservative spokesperson, Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Deputy Minister. Last week, the climate change Minister told the Senedd that Welsh Government officials wouldn't make the 2,500-mile journey to Sharm el-Sheikh for the COP27 conference in an effort to limit their air miles. Can you confirm how many air miles you accumulated on your recent trip to New Zealand?

Dawn Bowden AC: I can't tell you exactly how many miles it is, but I think New Zealand is around 12,000 miles, is it?

Tom Giffard AS: Not bad. [Laughter.] The total round trip was 22,000 miles.

Dawn Bowden AC: There we are; that's quite right.

Tom Giffard AS: It makes me wonder though what you learnt by making the trip, and what you couldn't have learnt on Zoom if you followed the logic of your climate change Minister. Or is it just another example of the typical virtue-signalling hypocrisy we've become used to from the Welsh Labour Government? Nevertheless, one thing I hope you will have seen out there is that, in New Zealand, 47 per cent of boys and 51 per cent of girls participate in sport outside of curriculum learning, compared to 43 per cent of boys and just 36 per cent of girls here, according to the recent Wales school sport survey, and that figure is one that's declining too compared to past years.So, what do you think New Zealand is getting right there that the Welsh Government is getting wrong here?

Dawn Bowden AC: I wouldn't frame it in quite that way, Tom. What I would say is, certainly—if I deal with your first point first—going to New Zealand was a very valuable experience, and I've done quite a detailed report on the activities that I undertook while I was there. I think it was extremely important to support the women's team while they were out there, qualifying for the world cup, playing on a world stage, and it was important that we did that. We support the men's team when they play in the world cup, and it's quite right that we should support the women's team in a similar way.
But we didn't just go out there to watch the rugby. We went out there to have an engagement with a number of organisations around sporting participation, particularly amongst women, but wider participation as well. And when the culture committee did a recent inquiry on participation in sport—which you're a member of, and that report is going to be coming to the floor of the Senedd very shortly—one of the organisations or one of the schemes that was mentioned in that inquiry, was from New Zealand, and was called Active Me. And I actually took the opportunity to go and meet Active Me while I was there, because the work that they do is very much about participation and physical activity, and they have a scheme there that is funded on a kind of tripartite basis between health and education and Sport New Zealand and so on. And although that is a very successful scheme, and it has achieved the kind of statistics that you're talking about, it's not a million miles away from some of the work that we are already doing. But what I have done, and what I'm intending to do, is to have further conversations with Sport Wales to see what more we can learn from the Active Me project, and see how that can be developed, so that we can deliver much more cohesive participation and activity amongst children in particular.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you. You mentioned that the scheme isn't that different, but, as I've already demonstrated, I think the results are quite stark between New Zealand and Wales. It's interesting you mentioned as well foreign trips. We haven't heard from the Deputy Minister since the Welsh Government decided not to send you to attend Wales's game against Iran next week in the world cup in Qatar. First we thought you were attending and then we were told you weren't because of the ongoing human rights abuses and protests in Iran. But, given that we know there are ongoing human rights abuses every day in Qatar, surely the Government is drawing a line here by saying that human right abuses in Iran aren't okay but ones in Qatar are fine. I note too that your boss, the economy Minister, said yesterday that Ministers there would be attending to, quote, 'project our values.' So, if it's a question about our opponents rather than the hosts, as the Welsh Government's approach seems to suggest, can you tell me which of Wales's other group opponents—England or the USA—you will be projecting values on to?

Dawn Bowden AC: Well, I think it's been abundantly clear why the Welsh Government is attending the FIFA World Cup. I think all of us accept, and have said on several occasions, we would prefer not to be in Qatar for all the reasons that have been previously talked about. In fact, just answering this question is one of those reasons, because what I would like to be focusing on is the fact that, for the first time in 64 years, we have a national football team that's going to be playing on a world stage, and that's what we should be focusing on. And, unfortunately, the fact that this competition is in Qatar means that we're focusing on some of the other things. I find that disappointing, because I think we—. Anyway, I find that disappointing. But I understand why people are doing that, because I have, as has the Minister for Economy and as has the First Minister, similar concerns about us being in Qatar.
But the First Minister and the Minister for Economy have made it very clear that we are attending those two games in particular because those are the two games and the two nations where we will be able to get the most economic benefit from in terms of our relationships with them, whether it's on trade, whether it's on similar values and aims that we have. I think you have to make a judgment call on those things, and that was the judgement call that Welsh Government made, and those are the reasons why we're going to those games. We've already talked about, and you've heard the Minister for Economy and the First Minister say this on several occasions, that there will also be a programme of activities that will include Welsh culture and arts and language being promoted in those countries as well, and it's quite right that the Government of Wales does that.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd. On 8 September this year, 2,000 artists and arts workers were selected for the basic income for the arts pilot scheme in Ireland. Each artist or practitioner will receive €325 per week for three years as part of a research project that will collect data from participants to assess the impact of the scheme on their creative output and their well-being, with the aim of rolling it out to all artists as a permanent intervention. The scheme aims to show how Ireland values the arts and artistic practices. As you will be aware, the Welsh Government launched its basic income pilot scheme for care leavers in summer this year, an excellent pilot project that I hope will deliver all of the expected benefits. I wonder therefore whether the Deputy Minister has considered a similar programme for our culture sector to the one launched in Ireland, and, if not, is this something that she and her officials would be willing to give serious consideration to, bearing in mind how the culture, arts and heritage sectors have been hit by both the pandemic and now the cost-of-living crisis?

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Heledd Fychan, for that question, and I think it's a very fair point. As you quite rightly say, we do have a basic income pilot running in Wales and we do need to evaluate that. I think that evaluation will then inform where we take that scheme further, beyond the pilot. You'll be aware that, through the pandemic, we did have a support scheme for freelancers in particular that wasn't available in England, and we had a freelance partnership working arrangement agreement with local authorities. So, we are very well aware of the precarious nature of freelance work, in particular, in the arts and creative sector, so we did seek to protect them. What I would say is I absolutely would not rule out what you're putting to me today, but I can't give you any guarantees, because we clearly do need to evaluate that basic income pilot before we can make any future decisions around that.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. That is very encouraging to hear. The current inflationary crisis is not only impacting individuals and households in the form of the cost-of-living crisis, but also many businesses, particularly those in the culture sector, who are experiencing a cost-of-business crisis. For example, Betsan Moses, the chief executive of the National Eisteddfod, warned that the festival had faced challenges this year as a result of Brexit, making importing goods more complicated and costly, and the festival is also facing increasing inflationary pressures. Similarly, the chairman of S4C, Rhodri Williams, has warned about soaring inflation hitting the channel's budget and that this will inevitably have a detrimental effect on the amount of content that can be commissioned from suppliers. Bearing this in mind, what discussions have taken place regarding safeguarding the future of the National Eisteddfod in the face of spiralling costs as a result of Brexit and inflation? And similarly, as S4C celebrates its fortieth birthday this year, what discussions are taking place to protect the tv production sector, particularly Welsh-language programming, here in Wales?

Dawn Bowden AC: Okay. So, a number of points there. Obviously, what I would say—and I won't single out the National Eisteddfod specifically, because all of our cultural organisations and bodies are experiencing very, very similar issues and I'm having regular discussions with all of them. In fact, part of those discussions do form the discussions that I have with your colleagues Siân Gwenllian and Cefin Campbell in the co-operation agreement around how organisations like the national library, for instance, and the national museum, are meeting some of their inflationary pressures around fuel costs and so on. So, we're well aware of the impact that this is having right the way across the sector, and we are doing what we can to support those organisations, in financial terms where we can, and we have done something most recently with the national museum and the national library. Where we can't afford to give immediate financial support in those areas, we are having conversations with those bodies about how they can mitigate against some of those costs.I'm meeting also with the tv channels and film producers about the impact on them as well, and those are similar discussions across the piece.
What I can't stand here and say is that the Welsh Government is able to meet all of those increasing and spiralling costs. You will be aware that every Minister in this Government is currently having to look at their budgets and what we can do in terms of saving in our budgets, because the inflationary pressures on our budget are hitting us as well. So, it is an understanding of the situation. It is a continuing dialogue with those organisations about the situations that they're facing, and we will have a much better idea after the UK budget tomorrow about what further help, if any, and measures we can put in place to help all the organisations that are covered in my portfolio.

New Nuclear Power Plant Sites

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on Rolls-Royce's announcement regarding new nuclear power plant sites and how this relates to Cwmni Egino? OQ58711

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. We welcome the commitment by Rolls-Royce to small modular reactors. Cwmni Egino is currently technology agnostic and is engaged in a market engagement exercise with a number of technology providers, including Rolls-Royce, to identify a preferred SMR technology for the Trawsfynydd site.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I thank the Minister for that response, but I want the Minister to explain what exactly the purpose of Cwmni Egino is now, given this development. Previously, the Minister for Economy and the First Minister have talked of other plans for Trawsfynydd, such as nuclear medicine. Egino itself, in its discussions with me, has made it clear that they have an open mind and are looking at different options, and that Rolls-Royce wasn't a priority for them. There is time and public money being provided to Egino and continues to be invested in its work. But it has become clear that Egino is a bit-part player, and that the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is making the decisions. Rather than having Egino focusing on developing old and failed technologies like nuclear, wouldn't it be better to invest in the excellent workforce doing excellent decommissioning work, led by the skilled leadership of Angharad Rayner and her team, and to develop Trawsfynydd as a good practice centre in decommissioning and develop a prosperous decommissioning industry that we can export to the rest of the world?

Vaughan Gething AC: I don't think the two things are separate or mutually exclusive. Cwmni Egino are actually engaging in work with the NDA on decommissioning, and there's a significant amount of work that is being undertaken, and we do think the work that is being done there will give examples to other sites around the world in the decommissioning of nuclear sites. I don't think that prevents a new generation of nuclear technology on the wider Trawsfynydd site, and I think it's important to just tidy up and clarify the recent announcement by Rolls-Royce.
They have identified four sites in the ownership of the NDA, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority, and two of them, Wylfa and Trawsfynydd, are in Wales. But that does not mean that they have reached agreement with the NDA for their technology to be deployed on those sites, and, for Trawsfynydd in particular, Cwmni Egino already have an agreement with the NDA about looking at options for the site, so Rolls-Royce aren't able to circumvent that. They need to continue to engage with Cwmni Egino and with the exercise they're undertaking. It may be that Rolls-Royce emerges as the preferred option, but that isn't guaranteed. That's why the exercise they're undertaking in the ongoing market engagement exercise is important, understanding the technology, and, crucially, an SMR could still take place on Trawsfynydd, together with or alongside the opportunities that exist for scientific research and the generation of radio-isotopes for use in our health and care system, and the opportunities to export.
So, I hope that helps to clarify, because I understand that, otherwise, the press release from Rolls-Royce could be read in the way the Member suggests, but it doesn't reflect the reality of the site, and Cwmni Egino are very much fit for purpose and looking to engage on the future of that site to the maximum benefit.

Sam Rowlands MS: I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for submitting today's important but also timely question, because it was just last week I chaired a round-table discussion on nuclear energy in Wales, with representatives from Rolls-Royce, along with Bechtel and UK Research and Innovation. And I'm convinced that nuclear energy is not just an opportunity in terms of bringing jobs and investment into north Wales—and you mentioned a few moments ago, Minister, the opportunities in places like Deeside in terms of manufacturing and advanced manufacturing in particular—it's also absolutely necessary in complementing renewables in providing a baseline of energy for the country, and especially when those renewable energy schemes, such as wind and solar, aren't able to function at 100 per cent due to the elements.
I'm also convinced that north Wales is a fantastic place to see this investment, because of the facilities that we have in existence, because of the workforce we have there with the skills, because of the sites that we have already, as you mentioned, at Trawsfynydd and at Wylfa as well, and also the supply chain to make nuclear energy a success in the region. So, I'm convinced on those parts, Minister, and I wonder what is your assessment of the benefits of nuclear energy in Wales and what discussions are you having with the leading figures within the nuclear sector to ensure that we can attract that investment and support carbon-neutral energy in the future as well?

Vaughan Gething AC: I recognise there are different views in this area. I'm very clear that, from my own point of view and the Government's point of view, future nuclear developments are part of the future energy mix, together with the significant opportunities we have around Wales, including of course off our coast as well as onshore, in energy generation. There is a challenge about baseload, but we're also interested in what the future of battery storage technology will mean, to make even better use of our renewable sources of power. And of course, you've heard me and the Minister for Climate Change talk on many occasions not just about decarbonising the way that we produce and use energy but the economic opportunities that come with it and how far up the value chain we can get the Welsh supply chain, which is one of the things I am most concerned about and interested in, and that point about the wider economic benefit with the skills that would be required.
Rolls-Royce are someone who have a current and proven technology, and part of their offer is that they say that that means they could generate energy quickly and more rapidly than larger nuclear developments. There are others who are interested in the field, and this is the exercise that Cwmni Egino are undertaking, to understand the different technologies that are available, rather than simply setting on one of those technology solutions. And of course, the size and the scale of any energy development will make a difference to how quickly it's deployed and also decision making. And we also need to see clarity from the UK Government on the future funding model for large nuclear projects. It's one of the undeniable fall-outs from the churn, to be as polite as I can, in Ministers: it means we haven't got a settled position. We do need that for the future of development in this area.
So, it's a balance in our future energy mix and, of course, when it comes to new nuclear of any size and scale, it must make sense that sites that have already housed nuclear facilities are the preferred options. And we also, of course, not just have communities that are broadly used to them but also the opportunity to re-engage wider supply chains and people who want to work in the industry. So, I remain optimistic about the potential, and I look for clarity at a UK level, and we will certainly do our part to make sure that we see the economic benefit as well as a reduction in carbon in the way that power is produced.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: That point with regard to clarity is very important, I think, from the Minister. I also noted the statement by Rolls-Royce with regard to Trawsfynydd and Wylfatoo. I happen to be excited about the renewable schemes, marine schemes, off Anglesey, and I also think that SMR nuclear technology is more suited to Ynys Môn than large-scale nuclear schemes. I tried to get a Wylfa newydd scheme that would meet the needs and the concerns, of course, on Anglesey. But the truth is of course that, because of the failure of the UK Government to deliver Wylfa newydd, we are back at square one, aren't we? Does the Minister agree with me that the uncertainty from the Conservative Government in London has caused economic damage and community damage, in a way, by leading people to go in one direction and then pulling the rug from under them?

Vaughan Gething AC: It's undeniable that the failure to get the previous Wylfa option with Hitachi over the line has created a challenge. There's lost economic benefit, because otherwise, we would have seen significant activity already taking place. The people who did go through the skills training opportunity on the basis that there would be this development, they've still got work, but not all those people are local. I've met some people locally, actually, who have stayed and have got work in different sectors, but actually, I think there would have been much greater opportunity with even more people going through, getting those skills and having the opportunity to work. There's undoubtedly been an economic loss, but I think you're right to point out that going part way up the hill and then coming back down again does mean that there is an extra mountain to climb when it comes to trust, that people will believe it really will happen, and not just on the island, actually, but across north Wales. Some of the conversations I've had with the Member for Alyn and Deeside, actually, are about people who would have been interested right across the north Wales region in securing work there. So, it's important that if there is to be a future proposal, of whatever size and scale, whether at Wylfa or Trawsfynydd, that there is certainty from the UK Government about what will happen in terms of when decisions will be made and then that those are followed through. So, the funding model for nuclear is really important to make sure that investors and communities have options and opportunities to engage on a basis where there's much clearer understanding. And then of course, a Government that is prepared to follow through on the choices that it makes. I recognise the points the Member makes, and I have great sympathy with them.

The Shared Prosperity Fund

Cefin Campbell MS: 4. What discussions has the Welsh Government held with the UK Government regarding the relevance of the shared prosperity fund to local authorities in Mid and West Wales? OQ58719

Vaughan Gething AC: The UK Government has put local authorities across all parts of Wales under immense pressure to try and make a success of a botched scheme beset by delays, inadequate funding and impossible deadlines. I have repeatedly raised these issues with a succession of UK Ministers and will continue to do so.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much. It's good to hear that, because as we know, this announcement was made at the beginning of the year, and not only does this new budget undermine the devolution settlement, but it also breaks Brexit promises of not a penny less. The £585 million available to Wales over three years is short as compared to the figure of £375 million available previously through the European structural funds. Local authorities, as you know, have worked very hard within a very tight timescale to present these bids, and the psychodrama that we've seen play out over the last few weeks—three Prime Ministers and four Chancellors in a matter of weeks—has slowed down the process, of course, and authorities are still waiting to hear whether their applications have been successful. So, I'm pleased to hear that you have been putting pressure on, but can we have an assurance that you will continue to urge the Westminster Government to release this funding, which is so badly needed in our local authorities across Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: I will continue to press the case with whoever the latest Ministers are with responsibility for this. The return of Michael Gove to the department of levelling up may mean that we don't have a significant delay in doing so, but it was supposed to be the case that within three months of submitting their plans, local government would then have answers from the UK Government. But actually, it isn't just the last three months, because that approval hasn't been made; it's actually even worse, because despite the fact that the shared prosperity fund was first announced in 2017, the fund has not yet got off the ground: not a penny of funding, not a single penny of funding from the shared prosperity fund has reached Wales, whereas the new EU funding programmes would have started almost two years ago, and money would already be flowing in a multi-year framework where you wouldn't have artificial deadlines for spending within financial years that would almost certainly mean money would be spent poorly at the end of one financial year, and if not, it would be unspent and returned to the UK Treasury. There'd be no top-slice for Multiply; again, another egregious transgression onto devolved responsibilities. The challenge is: is the UK Government prepared to meet even the pledges it has now made; the ones it made when it broke its manifesto promises; the ones that leave us over £1 billion worse off? I sincerely hope we have some clarity on the money coming so that decisions are made, but, more than that, so that the UK Government take the opportunity to walk away from the crazy rules they have imposed that will guarantee poor spending, and I believe it will certainly mean that money will go back to the Treasury, and it's certainly not what the promise of so-called 'levelling up' was meant to deliver.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to Cefin Campbell for tabling this question, specifically in relation to the significance of strong inter-governmental relations between the UK, Welsh, and, of course, local governments. Minister, on the topic of inter-governmental discussions, I'm sure you and your colleagues will be aware of the transformational bid for the Celtic freeport. If selected, freeport status in south-west Wales will accelerate major investment in Wales's low-carbon economy and offer a substantial development platform for new green industries. This vision won't just secure Wales and the UK's energy security, but it will unleash the economic benefits of floating offshore wind, hydrogen production and carbon capture, generating thousands of new high-quality and highly skilled jobs. Given that these are critical components to establishing a resilient decarbonised twenty-first century Welsh economy, can I ask if the Minister shares my passion for a Celtic sea freeport, and the subsequent benefits it brings? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: The freeports discussion was difficult, but it did ultimately conclude in agreement between the Welsh Government, with our responsibilities, and the UK Government. It's a model where there's shared decision-making responsibilities between equal decision makers, and the good thing about that is it moved on from a very unfortunate and unproductive scale of shouting, saying, 'It's all the Welsh Government's fault this hasn't happened.' When we actually had genuine decision-making Minister to decision-making Minister conversations, we were able to reach an agreement we could all live with, and that includes, of course, devolved concerns around fair work being part of the framework, and that's in stark contrast to the shared prosperity fund.
On your specific point and question around a specific bid for the freeports programme, I'm sure the Member will understand that I can't give him any kind of indication of support, because I will be the decision-taking Minister from the Welsh Government point of view, and I won't prejudice my decision, because I am aware that other bids are being made, and I look forward to seeing the detail of them.

Workers in the Night-time Economy

Delyth Jewell AC: 5. How does the Welsh Government act to secure the rights of workers who work in the night-time economy? OQ58716

Vaughan Gething AC: We use our levers and influence to promote fair work across our economy, but only the UK Government has the powers to improve statutory workers' rights and their enforcement. We do, though, repeatedly raise these issues with the UK Government.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Minister. When I was walking to the train last night, after the Senedd had finished, I was acutely aware that some of the walkways are a bit lonely, and it was dark, and I decided to take a slightly longer route, risking missing a train, because it would feel safer with more people around. The national survey for Wales has found that women don't feel as safe as men when it's dark. Fifty per cent of men feel very safe, compared with just 23 per cent of women. When we talk about the rights of women who work in the night-time economy and empowering them, I'd ask how we can tackle this problem. We want more people to use public transport for work, but getting to and from trains and bus stations can feel like taking a risk, particularly late at night. So, can I ask you, Minister, what you will do to reflect on this, to help ensure that more women, who work at night and have to travel in the dark, feel safe getting to and from their place of work?

Vaughan Gething AC: I understand there are real issues about whether people feel safe when areas are not well lit. I understand that's a particular concern for women and whether they feel safe or not, especially if they feel that they are being followed or someone is nearer to them than they should be, and it isn't just the recognition of the issue, it's then what gets done about it, and the challenge of working with other partners. It's businesses, it's other stakeholders, it's also our conversation with local authorities about some of the responsibilities they have, and conversations with my colleagues with responsibility for transport here around the transport framework and the facilities we want to have. I think it's a fair question to raise, particularly at this time of year, and I'll certainly look forward to a conversation not just between my officials, but with colleagues in the transport ministry led by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change and colleagues outside of Government.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, the night-time economy can sometimes be fragile employment, but it's crucial to our culture, communities and the economy. These workers faced the brunt of the pandemic lockdown, so it's crucial that they're supported to get back on their feet. What assessment, if any, has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the cost-of-living pressures on the night-time economy in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: The cost-of-living pressures are significant right across the night-time economy and the broader visitor economy, hospitality; any area where discretionary spend is involved is under pressure. It's the pressure from those businesses and their own costs, of course, so the energy costs and the inflation that we've seen go up again today to over 11 per cent, and it's worse than that in some sectors, of course. Food inflation has gone up even further. So, that's a challenge to the costs of businesses as well as energy, and, actually, when you're rely on people spending, as I say, discretionary spend over and above essentials, it shouldn't surprise people to know that in this sector there are real pressures and a number of businesses are already reducing their opening days or hours or both.
It's been made very clear to me that some businesses are concerned that they may not get to the end of the year, never mind get into the new year. It's why the choices that are going to be made tomorrow are so important on a whole range of fronts, not just the funding of public services, but what this means for people, for their pockets and for businesses that are relying on them being able to go out and spend. So, I'm not sanguine about the future, I'm genuinely concerned, and it's why I look for not just the choices there are to be made, but the long-term nature of those and the support that can be provided, and how the Welsh Government can then review the levers that we practically have once the Chancellor has made his choices tomorrow.

Labour Market Outcomes for Women

Sioned Williams MS: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the Government’s strategy for improving labour market outcomes for women? OQ58707

Vaughan Gething AC: I set out a range of actions within the employability and skills plan to maximise fairness and eliminate inequality. This includes improving labour market outcomes for women.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Minister. Women from all parts of Wales marched recently to ensure changes in working practices that create a disadvantage for mothers. And the Minister will be aware of the new report by Chwarae Teg, which demonstrates that the gender pay gap continues to be high, at 11.3 per cent this year. At almost 30 per cent, the gap is widest in Neath Port Talbot, in the region that I represent—an increase of 9.1 per cent since last year. Men earn more than women in 15 local authority areas in Wales. The gender pay gap for full-time employees has increased in Wales from 4.9 per cent to 6.1 per cent. As you've mentioned, mention of the closure of multiple wage gaps is made in the Government's employability and skills scheme. So, can the Minister outline what actions are in place to close the gender pay gap, because things clearly aren't going in the right direction at the moment? And what is the Minister doing to ensure that the current strategy to close the gender pay gap takes into account the disproportionate impact of the cost-of-living crisis on working women? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: I regularly reflect back on my time before coming to the Senedd, and the groups of people that I represented, including lots of women in equal pay claims, and understanding that, even in organised workplaces there are inequalities in pay outcomes, and some of those are structural and are about discrimination within the pay system. And then you have the broader challenge, of course, that part-time workers still receive less pay than full-time workers, and part-time workers are disproportionately women. So, I recognise there's a whole range of structures.
The Government has a role in doing something about it. Some of that is in the leadership space, in being clear about the fact that this is issue and then setting out some of the things we'll do, both in the intervention we want to make in the labour market and getting more people to be economically active, but then also in equipping those people to gain access to better paid work. That's both the skills training, but it's also some of the points that Julie Morgan has been outlining about the childcare offer and the expansion of that as well, to give practical access to people to paid work opportunities and for childcare to be affordable. So, it's a wide range of different measures that are required to genuinely transform and to tackle pay gaps, consistent action to transform organisational structures, policy and outcome.
It also requires the private sector to play their part too. We don't have all of the legal responsibilities in this area, but, as I say, I think the leadership role we have really does matter, and that's why we profile people who do the right thing when it comes to the reward of their workforce and recognisethe fact that everyone should be paid fairly. It's also, therefore, about why fair work isn't just something that goes into trade union representation and organisations. It's all of those things and the sorts of companies that we want to work with, and it's part of the requirement we expect of people who want support from the public purse here in Wales.

Altaf Hussain AS: I thank my colleague for raising this question. The pandemic had a significant impact on the economic well-being of women. We know that, on average, women tend to earn less, have fewer savings, work more in the informal economy and make up the majority of single-parent households. If we are to refocus our attention on the outcomes for women in work, how does your strategy reflect the learning from the pandemic, which exposed some significant challenges and risks?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think, actually, the pandemic made things harder. I think it saw a retrenchment back in many family and community groups where women took on more of the caring role and less of the economic activity role. That's taken us back. In my own family, we had real challenges at the time with home schooling, but it was part of my job to do some of that as well. I couldn't simply say, 'My job is more important than my wife's, so she needs to take care of our son.' He's my son too. And so, actually, it is about how we share those responsibilities, but I recognise the broader position has made it more difficult.
I think this is one of the points that Sioned Williams made about recognising some of the challenges in the differential impact of not just the pandemic, but the cost-of-living crisis as well. And our real challenge is not just understanding what the narrative and what the problem is, but the levers we have available to us. The changes that will be made tomorrow will undoubtedly have an impact. Because the unavoidable reality is that, if you're going to see a move back in the real-terms benefit of support that families are provided through the tax and benefits system, it will make this harder and a bigger hill to climb. So, leadership, but also choices, and who we get to work with, will be crucial parts of making this a reality, and not simply something we talk about and say we're all committed to in theory.

Offshore Energy Production

Sam Rowlands MS: 7. What discussions is the Minister having with the Minister for Climate Change on promoting the economic benefits of offshore energy production in North Wales? OQ58717

Vaughan Gething AC: I have regular conversations with my friend and colleague the Minister for Climate Change. We fully realise the economic benefits of proposed offshore energy projects in north Wales; this is significant for the whole of Wales. It is my responsibility to ensure that we try to maximise these opportunities for Wales, including those opportunities within the Celtic sea.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you for your response, Minister. As you will know, I'm always interested in understanding the economic benefits, especially for my patch up in north Wales, in terms of offshore energy production. I'm sure, Minister, you'll agree with me that tidal energy has a great opportunity not just in supporting our climate, but also in bringing direct job opportunities and new investment into our local communities. This week, I had a very helpful meeting with TPGen24, whose technology uses a tidal lagoon-based system that harnesses and manipulates the immense power of our tidal ranges to generate green energy. I understand that they and others have engaged with the Welsh Government's tidal lagoon challenge, which, of course, is part of your programme for government, which I applaud in terms of its ambition in supporting ideas to make Wales a world centre of emerging tidal technology. I wonder, Minister, in light of their engagement with that challenge and other organisations' engagement with it, what discussions are you having with the climate change Minister regarding the progress of the tidal lagoon challenge, and how do you see the opportunities of tidal energy in terms of the economy here in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think tidal energy has significant opportunities for Wales. Again, it's not just the power generation, but it's an area where there is a new technology and a new form of economic activity being developed, and I want to see Wales at the very leading edge of that. Of course, we've already invested £59 million of former structural funds to help progress matters in this area. There is more than one project. You'll be aware of Morlais as well, and the work we've done with them. Our challenge is how we take forward not just the tidal energy challenge, but then to understand where we get from demonstrator to commercial deployment, and the levers we have available to do that within the wider energy mix that we have the opportunity to see properly exploited for significant economic benefit. That's not just across north Wales, but, of course, there'll be tidal energy opportunities around the rest of our coastline as well. I look forward to myself or the climate change Minister giving a more purposive update when we're in a position to do so.

And finally, question 8, Peter Fox.

The Retail Sector

Peter Fox AS: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of its shared strategic vision for the retail sector? OQ58701

Vaughan Gething AC: Our shared vision for retail was launched in June, and it marked the start of a broader and deeper conversation with the sector. The Wales retail forum, made up of partners from business and the trade union side—and I'm sure that the Member and others have had the opportunity to see one of those partners, USDAW, in the launch of their Freedom from Fear campaign—have been working together on a delivery plan of priority actions for the sector. The plan is nearing its final stages and will, of course, be published once completed.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you very much for that, Minister. The importance of the Welsh retail sector cannot be stressed enough. We know that over 110,000 people are directly employed by the industry. Recently, I met with chief execs of major businesses in the retail sector, all of whom expressed their serious concerns with vital detail missing from the Welsh Government's shared strategic vision.
Retention and recruitment are huge problems facing the industry, as they told me, yet the Government's strategy does not outline concrete steps to overcome that obstacle. The chief execs also maintain that freezing business rates next April, a step that the Welsh Government has not yet committed to, would provide a welcome boost, as would an adjustment to the multiplier. Unless these things happen, they warn that Wales will become even less competitive.
Businesses told me that they are desperately in need of stability and certainty. Minister, do you recognise their concerns, and will you do all that you can to look at business rates, including the multiplier, which currently make doing business here the most expensive in the UK? These things will ultimately determine the future of these businesses.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I certainly do recognise the significant challenges that exist within the sector. I was recently with the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership at the consultation event around the detailed plan. Again, the leading trade union, USDAW, together with other colleagues and the Welsh Retail Consortium, which you will be familiar with—your former deputy leader, Sara Jones—are actually representing and bringing together the sector.
They are raising a range of issues. They are certainly looking for stability and certainty from the Government, and they are getting it, because we have worked alongside them to develop the vision, and are working alongside them with the delivery of a plan. We'll then publish it, and there may well be things that we will commit to doing as a result of that. That's the work that we are doing at present.
I recognise the challenge about retaining and recruiting people. We have actually been really positive about wanting and encouraging people to see a career in the sector. And actually, the vision and the delivery plan should help to build on that. This isn't just seasonal employment. There is a real career to be had within these sectors as well. So, the consultation on the delivery plan isn't finished. We certainly will take account of the views that we have had recently.
The point around rates was raised there as well, but I would gently remind the Member that, given that tomorrow has yet to happen, the financial envelope that we have to operate in is not yet clear to us. Our commitment on business rates to the end of this financial year is there, but we really do need to understand what tomorrow is going to bring; whether it increases our ability to do more, or whether it actually makes the challenge even harder, as he will know in very practical terms from his time in leading a local authority and having to make these very difficult or practical choices.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

The next item, therefore, is the questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question comes from Huw Irranca-Davies.

Hospital to Home

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 1. What recent assessment has the Minister made of the hospital to home service provided through the partnership between Bridgend County Care and Repair and the Princess of Wales Hospital? OQ58690

Eluned Morgan AC: The Hospital to a Healthier Home service in Bridgend has supported positive outcomes for service users. It has helped to reduce the number of bed days used at the Princess of Wales Hospital through supporting timely discharge, and has supported vulnerable people to maximise their incomes through access to relevant benefits.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, I welcome that really positive response. Sarah Murphy and I attended in the last month a celebratory event to mark the ten thousandth individual referred on to that pathway from Princess of Wales, through Bridgend Care and Repair. What it does is a wraparound service around that individual, which makes sure that the home adaptations are done, that the nursing and other clinical care—but also other support, including things such as benefits assessment—are done when that person goes home. It is groundbreaking. It has set the standard, I have to say, for other trust and hospital services and partnerships throughout Wales.
I wonder, would you join me in congratulating all of those people, like Meinir Woodgate, the service manager; people like Rena; people like Christine Beadsworth, the hospital-to-home caseworker, and all those who contribute to the successful partnership? Can you tell us what reassurance we can give that these sort of partnerships will continue not to do 10,000 people referred, but 20,000 and 30,000 and 100,000 people throughout Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, and thanks for your interest in what I think is a really important programme. Because we're in a cost-of-living crisis, this is the time when we really need to be wrapping our arms around people who may be under a lot of pressure. We have an opportunity in the health service to make every contact count, and that's part of what we're doing here with this particular programme. It is quite remarkable, I think, if you look at the service—I think there have been 628 successful benefit claims since April 2021 with an average of £3,800 a year of extra income per patient. That is transformational for these families. That is a huge amount of money, and this is money that they're entitled to. So, we've got to make sure that people really understand that this service is available.
There are lots of other services available. I know Jane Hutt has been promoting services that we're promoting with Citizens Advice and all the others, but that has represented an income overall of £2,391,000. That's huge. That's money not just going into their pockets, but also into local communities after that. So, I would like to thank them for that. In Cwm Taf Morgannwg in particular we've seen 217 patients supported. It is quite remarkable. And it's not just about benefits assessment, as you say, it's about adaptation and everything. So, I would like to join with you in thanking Meinir, Rena and the others for their work, and I have made it clear that I'd be disappointed if these successful services and projects were to be decommissioned. We're all under massive pressure at the moment. Everybody understands the pressure, but obviously this is an area where these people are entitled to this support, and we need to give them a little helping hand to get there.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, we know that hospitals are struggling to manage their bed capacity, with too many people medically fit for discharge but unable to do so, for a variety of reasons. The hospital-to-home scheme in Bridgend is one initiative from which we should learn, but what other steps is the Minister taking to help people move from hospital, such as more ambitious discharge-to-assess programmes to help not just our hospitals, but most importantly, the individuals whose needs could be better assessed away from the hospital environment?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Altaf. I probably spend as much time on the delayed transfers of care, as you've pointed out, as anything else. There are blockages all along the system, we know that, but this is a particular blockage. I have regular meetings with local authorities—I had one yesterday—to really look at what we can deliver in this area. It's hard now, but winter is coming, and we've got to try and get as much capacity in our communities as possible. We are making some progress here, and I do hope that I'll be able to report to you very soon in terms of what that partnership working with local authorities has been able to deliver so far, and what we're intending to deliver over the course of the winter.
We know what the problem is. The solutions are not easy because it's all about care workers, and I was delighted to go and listen to what Unison had to say earlier. There are lots and lots of issues that are interconnected here, but delayed transfer of care is part of what's blocking the system. It's not the only thing. It's really important for us to understand it's not the only thing, but that is a significant part of the problem.

Ambulance Waiting Times in South Wales East

Delyth Jewell AC: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on ambulance waiting times in South Wales East? OQ58685

Alun Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on ambulance response times in Blaenau Gwent? OQ58699

Laura Anne Jones AC: 5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to cut ambulance waiting times? OQ58708

Eluned Morgan AC: Ambulance response times across Wales are not where they should be, but performance against the national target for red calls in the Aneurin Bevan health board area was the best in Wales in September. A national plan is in place to drive ambulance improvement, supported by £3 million of Welsh Government funding.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Delyth Jewell AC: Minister, nearly every week, there are questions relating to the unacceptable delays that patients face while waiting for ambulances, and every delay risks people's lives. I've been contacted by a constituent who witnessed one such delay in Abergavenny earlier this month. The constituent was in a wedding anniversary party and someone present became very unwell and fell unconscious. The emergency services were called and my constituent said that, to the shock and horror of those present, they were told that there was a seven-hour wait for an ambulance. Now, fortunately, the person in question recovered consciousness, but it could so easily have turned out very differently. The same constituent remembered how, when they witnessed a similar incident six years ago at Christmas time, an ambulance was requested and attended within minutes. They've said that the more recent incident has led them to feel that if they were to be suddenly taken ill, it would be pointless calling for help. So, Minister, what assurance can you give me, please, and my constituent, that the situation will improve?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I can assure you that it's not just your constituent who's asking questions;I'm asking questions very, very consistently of the ambulance service in Wales. I met them on Monday, or yesterday, just to go through the detail of their performance.The irony is that they're actually getting to more people than they've ever got to before. So, actually, in terms of performance, their performance is improving. The problem is that the demand is going through the roof, and that's where the real issue is. And that is really, really challenging and obviously, we've already recruited 250 people over the past couple of years.
I was really delighted just now, I happened to be out on the street where I passed a couple of ambulances—whenever I see an ambulance, I go and check up and check out, 'Why aren't you picking somebody up?' and, love them, you can imagine their terror when they see the health Minister coming along—and, love them, they were people who were training; they're the next cohort, the next 100 people who are in training who are going to get out on the streets as soon as possible. They've got their test tomorrow and I was wishing them all the best, because, actually, we need them out on our streets. But I'm really delighted that that is really working through now.
And the other thing I think to bear in mind is, if we hadn't put lots of measures in place already, the situation would have been a hell of a lot worse than it is now.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that earlier response. It's certainly true that people want that level of reassurance that an ambulance will be available should they, or a member of their family, become seriously unwell and require an ambulance. And it's important that we're able to provide that level of confidence to people. And one of the things that people raise with me isn't simply the waiting times, but also the structure of a service to deliver the sort of response that people require.
You will be aware that there's been a considerable debate about the rostering of paramedics and ambulance staff and also the movement of resources and assets to different locations around and across the country. You'll also be aware that my constituency has one of the more difficult waiting times, not just in Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, but elsewhere as well. So, can you provide the reassurance that you are working with the ambulance service to ensure that we have the staff where they need to be and the assets and resources where they need to be to provide the most comprehensive response to people wherever their need happens to be or whatever their location?

Eluned Morgan AC: Yes, thanks. And I think it's really important that people understand all the background that's gone into this. So, what you can't do is, week after week, come and tell me, 'You need to do this, that, and the other to improve efficiency'. We get an independent group in to take a really good look at efficiencies—how do we get more out of the system? The independent review looks at the analysis, tells you, 'Actually, you do need to restructure—you can make this system work better if you reroster', and actually, rerostering is going to improve the number of people equivalent to an extra 74 people on the front line. So, it may be a little bit uncomfortable for a little, while that rerostering is going on, but in terms of the overall system, I've got to make the overall system work better, and those 74 additional equivalent places is an efficiency as a result of rostering. So, you can't have it both ways—you can't tell me to restructure, and then I say, 'Right, I'm going to get efficiencies', and then tell me, 'Oh, we don't want it like that'. Those are the calls I have to make as health Minister, and I'm making that call.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, you've constantly said that you're looking at a whole-system approach, from GPs to delayed transfers of care, and we'd agree with this. But it's been over a year now since you published your six goals for emergency care, and the situation has got worse. None of this, of course, is the fault of hard-working paramedics, but the poor planning from this Labour Government. Minister, we haven't forgotten that the last Minister said that it would be foolish to publish a plan for recovery whilst the pandemic was still going on, and now we're paying that price. Minister, we're coming up to winter, as you outlined earlier; we know the situation will deteriorate, even without the prospect of a nurses' strike. What urgent measures are you taking to ensure that our ambulance service don't pay the price of this Government's poor planning?

Eluned Morgan AC: Do you know, I'm not going to put up with this any more; I'm really getting fed up of it. The amount of work that we've put into this, the difference that the £25 million that we've put in to the six goals for urgent and emergency care—I stay awake at night, not just worrying about the future, but just worrying about what the future might have looked like had we not put all that investment in. So, just to give you a few examples: we've now got same-day emergency care services; we've seen emergency admissions in October, they were 20 per cent below pre-pandemic levels—that's because we've made the change, it's because we've put that investment in. So, I know it's bad; it's because the demand has gone up. But it's really important that people understand how bad it really might have been had we not put those systems in. The urgent primary care centres—we're seeing 5,000 people a month who might have been heading into accident and emergency—[Interruption.] Of course it's not enough. It would help if your Government wasn't going to cut our funding on Thursday, frankly, in order to help us to put more money into the system—

Gareth Davies AS: Oh, come on. You're responsible for the—[Inaudible.]

Eluned Morgan AC: I am responsible, but I'll tell you what, it hasn't helped that, actually, I have people now working in the NHS who, as a direct result—a direct result—of Liz Truss's Government, who didn't last very long, have their mortgages going up—[Interruption.] Their mortgages are going up, and that's your fault and your problem, and you've got to take responsibility for that.

Peter Fox AS: Presiding Officer, I would like to use my question to raise the issue of ambulance handovers at hospital, which contributes to increased waiting times. The Minister will be acutely aware of the recent report by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales into A&E services at Grange Hospital, which highlighted many shortcomings. And I'm not critical of the staff at all here; I'm critical of the systems. The report highlights that, on the day that HIW's inspection took place, the average offload time at the hospital was over four hours. One patient had waited 18 hours in the back of the ambulance, and another for 13 hours. And there are many other handover breaches in the report, i.e. using ambulance trollies for long periods of time, and it was just not suitable. And it highlights the real issue of handover. I know that that's going to be dealt with separately, but, Presiding Officer, it's clear that, if we do want to cut ambulance waiting times, then we need to improve handover procedures, which, in turn, means creating additional capacity at A&E facilities, so that people can be triaged quickly.
Minister, how confident are you that the additional money that has been announced by the Government to support urgent and emergency care services will lead to increased service capacity, particularly as we head into winter? And how is the Welsh Government working with local health boards to ensure that patients who have to wait in an ambulance before entering hospital receive sufficient care and support and dignity, and the medication and equipment that they need?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Peter. And you're absolutely right—the challenges around handover in health boards are something that I, as the health Minister, am really keeping the pressure on. What's interesting—. So, we've asked every health board now to demonstrate to us what is their plan. And it's really interesting, because the plans are quite different from health board to health board. And I'm going to give a shout out to Cardiff and Vale health board, because they've really focused and really said 'Right, these are the things we're going to do.' And we've seen, as a result of that focus, those four-hour handovers improve. And, so, what we need to do now is to make sure that everybody else learns from that example. So, we know what works; let's get everybody else to do it. And the benefit of having a Welsh health service is that we've got that kind of co-ordinating ability.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm going to direct my spokesperson's questions this time towards my home area of Rhyl and the north Denbighshire community hospital up in that patch, or the lack of a north Denbighshire community hospital for that matter on the Royal Alexandra site. For 10 years now, this Welsh Labour Government, in the shadow of Nye Bevan, is depriving local people on the Denbighshire coast of a facility that will cater for many people's health problems, in a way that will take the emphasis off Ysbyty Glan Clwyd and reduce waiting times.
Now, back in 2012, this was costed as a £22 million project, doubling to £44 million in 2017. Who knows what the cost of it would be in the current financial climate? So, will the Minister disclose today whether, if this rudderless Welsh Government had acted a decade ago, people in Rhyl, Prestatyn and north Denbighshire would now have a local health facility that would have been affordable?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I wasn't even in the Senedd 10 years ago, so I can't tell you, but what I can tell you is that making—. You've got to take into consideration that a £22 million bill is very different from what the bill would be today, which is £80 million—is it £80 million, around £80 million; £74 million or so—which is a significant difference. And let's remember that this is when the capital budget is not increasing. So, that is a problem for us, and we can't do much about that capital unless we get more money from the UK Government. And I know what you're going to say; you're going to say 'Yes, take responsibility.' I will take responsibility if—[Interruption.] I do take responsibility, but if I don't have the capital budget, how on earth am I supposed to address those issues that you as Tories want me to address?

Gareth Davies AS: Come off it.

Eluned Morgan AC: You speak to your bosses up in London, tell them to give me more capital and I'll put my thinking cap on in terms of what we can do in terms of north Wales.

Gareth Davies AS: Well, I don't accept that answer really, health Minister, as this has been devolved as your Government's responsibility for nearly a quarter of a decade. And it's interesting you say that, as, back in 2018, 2019, when you were hopelessly scraping around for votes, your predecessor, Vaughan Gething, and my predecessor, Labour's Ann Jones, posted a social media video—[Interruption.]

No point of order. Let's carry on with the question please.

Gareth Davies AS: As it should be. Labour's Ann Jones posted a social media video in this very Senedd saying that the Welsh Government would deliver on the north Denbighshire community hospital, and that Labour was working for the people of the Vale of Clwyd. Now, this video has been conveniently deleted and confined to the bowels of history, but I know what I've seen, Minister, and I have a good memory, unfortunately for you.So, will you now admit that you've failed my constituents in Denbighshire, and that you've broken trust with them in believing that your party was working for local residents?

Eluned Morgan AC: So, all of a sudden, I am responsible for the social media content of everybody within the Labour group. I'm sorry, guys, I'm not taking it. I've got enough responsibility on my hands as it is. Ann was not in Government, and I think you've got to understand that. If that's the case, I'm going to hold you responsible for what Liz Truss said. You want to do that? I'll hold you to it.

Can I just make the point that Ann Jones is not here to defend herself? She is no longer a Member of this Senedd at this point. I suspect if she was, she'd have something to say at this point. But I'll ask you to ask your third question.

Gareth Davies AS: Well, as a constituency Member who's very interested in this matter, I think it's only dutiful for me, as the Member for that constituency, to highlight the track record of this situation—[Interruption.]

Carry on with your next question; you're already a quarter of a way into it.

Gareth Davies AS: Okay. You may say that, Minister, but I had a meeting with the chair and directors of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board just yesterday, and they categorically told me that they've done all they can on their side of the bargain in terms of submitting their business case to you, planning procedures and anything else that's pertinent to their remit. So, they are waiting for you, Minister. People in Rhyl, Prestatyn and north Denbighshire have been promised this for a decade, without a spade going in the ground or any tangible evidence that this Welsh Government is doing anything. People in my constituencyhave to travel as far as Colwyn Bay, Llandudno and even Bangor and Holywell at times to receive step-down treatment, and not all people have access to private vehicles, relying on an equally failing public transport system under this Labour Government.So, will you meet with the health board at the earliest convenience and thrash these problems out to give local people the assurances that this Government is on people's side? And if you can't guarantee that, will you now admit that you've failed the people of the Vale of Clwyd?

Eluned Morgan AC: I don't know—. It's true I did question before I walked in here why I'm answering questions from a spokesperson who's a spokesperson on care on issues that are related to health. I think that is something that perhaps the Presiding Officer might want to look at.

No, the Presiding Officer doesn't want to comment on that. It is a matter for the Conservative group to decide how they want to position their spokespeople questions and whether they want to focus on a particular area of Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: A point of order, Presiding Officer.

No point of order. You're trying your best, Huw Irranca-Davies, but I'm going to ask the Minister to respond to the question.

Eluned Morgan AC: Okay, let's carry on. Let's just carry on. We can take this up afterwards. We can take it up afterwards. Listen, let me tell you—[Interruption.]

Gareth Davies AS: The lot of you, grow up. Grow some backbone.

Can we have some order, please? Can we have some order?

Gareth Davies AS: Had enough. Had enough.

Do you want to listen to the response from the Minister?

Gareth Davies AS: Well, she hasn't—

No, just sit down and listen to the response.

Gareth Davies AS: If she's got the decency to respond, then, come on, let's have it. Let's have it. Come on.

Now, come on.

Gareth Davies AS: Come on. I'm tired of this.

Can I have some quiet, please?

Gareth Davies AS: Constant shifting of blame all the time.

I'm sure we want to—. I think some people are leaving at this point. I'm going to ask the Minister to respond to the question, and I'll ask all Members to be quiet in order to listen.

Eluned Morgan AC: Okay, let's just—. Shall we try and—[Interruption.]

There's no point of order.

Eluned Morgan AC: Can we just try and move on? I'm happy to move on.

There is no answer to this question. I'm not asking the Minister to respond to the question, because things have gone out of order. You had your chance, Gareth Davies. I'll ask you if you want to leave quietly now, if you want.

Gareth Davies AS: I will leave, and it's an affront to democracy. It's an affront to democracy.

It's not. You've asked all your questions; it's in no way an affront to democracy.

Gareth Davies AS: I have, and there's no answer. There's no answer, so I will leave.

I am asking you to leave at this point.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch yn fawr.

You will apologise to the Chair before you are allowed to re-enter this Chamber, and I will expect that apology soon. I am moving on now to question 3, Sarah Murphy. [Interruption.] I'll take a point of order at the end. Sarah Murphy to ask the question, please.

Alun Davies AC: Presiding Officer, there does need to be a point of order.

No. Alun Davies, sit down now, please. I can accept—

Alun Davies AC: When Members are afraid to sit in this Chamber—

Look, I am taking—. I'm asking you to sit down, right. I will take a point of order at the end of these questions. Sarah Murphy, question 3. Please ask the question, and I'm sure the Minister will respond.

Mike Hedges AC: Llywydd, you've forgotten Rhun.

Ah, right. Sarah Murphy, you've got some time.

Rhun ap Iorwerth, spokesperson's questions.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Can the Minister explain why she's refusing to engage in pay negotiations with the Royal College of Nursing?

Eluned Morgan AC: I'm not refusing to engage. In fact—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Yes, you are.

Eluned Morgan AC: No. I'll answer the question if you'll let me. I'm not refusing to engage, I've got a meeting scheduled for the end of this month with all of the trade unions and they all want to talk about pay. So, I don't have a problem with that and I don't know where you've got that information from.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The Minister knows that's not pay negotiations. She also said last week that she was meeting regularly with the Royal College of Nursing—that's not pay negotiations. The meeting that she has just referred to now is not pay negotiations. The last letter, I believe, that the Royal College of Nursing wrote to the Minister asking for pay negotiations was on 25 October. They still have not received a response to the letter that they sent to the Minister on 25 October.
I was struck with what the First Minister said yesterday. He said,
'all strike action ends in the end in negotiation',
but, surely, it's better to do the negotiation in a timely manner. Having failed to sit down to negotiate to try to avoid a ballot, will Government now give nurses and the nursing profession the respect they deserve by sitting down with them to negotiate in a bid to avert strike action, which nobody wants, least of all the nurses themselves?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I can tell you nobody wants it less than me. I'm very worried about nurses going on strike in the middle of a very difficult winter. I understand their position, and I'm in a situation where I am trying to engage with trade unions. So, I met with the Royal College of Midwives this morning and pay came up, obviously, as an issue. I also had meetings with Unite representatives on Monday. Again, there's an understanding there.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: That was not my question. I was asking about pay negotiations.

I think it may be you, Sarah Murphy.

Question 3, Sarah Murphy.

Faecal Calprotectin Tests

Sarah Murphy AS: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on the availability of faecal calprotectin tests in primary care settings in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board area? OQ58689

Eluned Morgan AC: Making the faecal calprotectin test available to all GPs in Wales is a key action for the inflammatory bowel disease programme.Good progress is being made in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board area, as well as in other health boards across Wales.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch, Minister. You and I both joined the Crohn's and Colitis UK launch of their new campaign 'Cut the Crap' last week, and we heard testimonies from those who are living with Crohn's, and overwhelmingly they stressed the importance of an early diagnosis. Last week, I also reached out to my residents and my constituents on social media and asked them to share any of their experiences of diagnosis, support and treatment, and, again, overwhelmingly people spoke about how they had faced misdiagnosis, with one woman saying that it actually took her 30 years before she found out that she had Crohn's disease. In order to make this better for people, we do need to ensure that healthcare professionals are given the tools to identify the symptoms of Crohn's and colitis, and access to the appropriate tests to avoid that misdiagnosis. So, Minister, what support can be given to GPs, in particular, in recognising the symptoms of Crohn's and colitis when people first come to see them?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Sarah, and thank you for attending that event last week, which I thought was very useful. The Royal College of General Practitioners have funded an inflammatory bowel disease spotlight project, and that happened between 2017 and 2022. This produced really useful resources for those people in primary care, and those resources are still available on the royal college of GPs' website, and are also available on the Crohn's and Colitis UK website. I think they included a number of checklists, pathways and presentations aimed at primary care. So, I would encourage GPs and teams to use those resources. One of the other things that I thought was useful from the event was that they have their own symptoms checker, so you can check if you've got these symptoms. One of them—who knew—if you get up in the middle of the night to go for a poo, that's not normal. My mum will be disgusted that I'm talking about poo in the Chamber, but I think it's really important we start talking about these things.

Tom Giffard AS: Faecal calprotectin tests are a really effective way of diagnosing irritable bowel syndrome, or the need for further examination for things such as Crohn's and colitis, which I know you've just been discussing. IBS is common, affecting up to 25 per cent of the UK population and, in general, it can be managed in primary care. However, as the symptoms can be difficult to differentiate from inflammatory bowel disease, many patients are still referred and account for 28 per cent of gastroenterology appointments—I've been practising that word all morning. These tests can help reduce these referrals by differentiating between the two conditions. Calprotectin is recommended by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence in adults with a recent onset of lower gastrointestinal symptoms for whom a specialist assessment is being considered and when cancer is not suspected. But, in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, 38 per cent of those waiting for treatment on gastroenterology are waiting over 36 weeks for treatment, and 831 are waiting over a year for treatment. Therefore, what steps is the Minister taking to ensure that primary care settings are making more use of those tests where relevant, and what engagement have you had with stakeholders regarding that?

Eluned Morgan AC: I think shining a spotlight on this is really important. That's one of the ways to make sure that GPs know about the resources that are available so that they can look for those symptoms and just be more aware. So, I think that's really important. And, as you say, we've got to differentiate between the two conditions, and it's really important. I think it's worth saying that the kind of bowel screening programme is slightly different, so we just need to make sure that people understand that there is a different approach going on here, and the bowel screening programme is being hugely successful. We've seen the uptake in that improve considerably. But this is slightly different and it's something where I think the focus needs to be on GPs looking out for those symptoms.

Access to NHS Services in Mid Wales

Russell George AC: 6. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that people living in mid Wales have adequate access to NHS services? OQ58705

Eluned Morgan AC: Powys Teaching Health Board is responsible for providing services to its population. We're working with the health board on business cases for both the north Powys well-being development and refurbishment works at Llandrindod Wells hospital.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. The services provided by the Wales Air Ambulance to the people of mid Wales and other areas of Wales is invaluable. There is deep concern, as you know, Minister, with proposals to move the Welshpool base and how that will strengthen services in mid Wales. I find it difficult to accept that moving a helicopter and road vehicle further away from mid Wales will lead to an expansion in the service. The First Minister is yet to correct the record when he told me in this Chamber that the data that sits behind the proposals belong to the charity itself, when we know the data belong to the NHS Wales Emergency Medical Retrieval and Transfer Service Cymru. Do you agree with me that it is of great importance that all the information and data that underpins the proposals are made publicly available before the start of the engagement process?
We were more recently informed that the chief ambulance service commissioner is now leading on the process, but I was concerned yesterday that the Wales Air Ambulance charity has invited selected people to gatherings across mid Wales to explore, as they put it, 'the future of our service delivery'. The charity has made it clear that these sessions are by invitation only and should not be forwarded to other people to attend. I am concerned that this approach does not encourage equal opportunities for all to present their views and brings an element of confusion to the engagement process, which we are told is being led by the commissioner. I've got a strong view that there should be a formal public consultation on the proposals due to the change of delivery of a key service and the significant concern and public interest that these proposals have. Do you agree that there should be a full public consultation, and will you make sure that this is the case, Minister?

Eluned Morgan AC: I understand the strength of feeling on this, in particular in Montgomeryshire and in north Wales, where the air ambulance bases are based at the moment. This is an independent charity. It's an independent charity, and what you have asked us to do is to make sure that the data and the presentation is available. Now, my understanding is that that presentation has been offered to Senedd Members and, actually, lots of people have taken up that opportunity to have a look at the data. So, that data is available, and I think what's important is that we understand that, all of the time, when money is tight, you've got to look for efficiencies, and what the air ambulance services are telling us is that they can gain some efficiencies if they change the configuration. Now, they're an independent service. I think what we've got to remember is that there is an opportunity for consultation, and it is through the community health councils; they are the representatives, the spokespeople for the public. So, what I would do is encourage people to make sure that they communicate and make their views known to the community health councils and that they then can engage with that presentation by the air ambulance service.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I want to ask about teeth, and particularly the teeth of people in mid Wales. There are around 15,000 people waiting for an NHS dentist across Wales—that means that a wait of around two years for people to get an NHS dentist is the case. I do appreciate that there are problems and issues around waiting lists, and I've raised the issue a few times around the teeth of people in mid and west Wales. But I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about what your plans are around making sure that people in mid and west Wales get an NHS service, because, currently, what we have is a two-tier service where the rich can afford to go to a dentist, and those probably in the highest need, who are poorer, don't get that opportunity. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, and thank you for your perseverance on this issue. I think it is really important. It's quite marked, though, that, actually, what I've noticed is that the number of people complaining has actually reduced slightly recently, and part of the reason for that is because the new contract reform system is starting to bite. So, the contract reform system that we introduced, 90 per cent of dentists are now—of the value of their dental contracts—working under those new arrangements, and what that means is that we've seen that 89,500 new patients have gained access to NHS dental services this year. So, it's already gone a long way. There's still a bit more to go; I think we need to get up to about 120,000 in terms of the contract value, so there's still a bit of a way to go, but it will be interesting to hear whether you have noticed that slight reduction in volume on this issue, because it's certainly something that I've noticed.

Public Health

Altaf Hussain AS: 7. What steps is the Minister taking to improve public health in South Wales West? OQ58698

Lynne Neagle AC: Improving public health is identified as a priority within 'A Healthier Wales', our long-term strategy for health and social care. This is supported by plans such as our tobacco control and 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategies.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, there are several communities within South Wales West where we see a poor level of public health impacting not just on those individuals and their life chances, but on the health services that are expected to treat them. Poor public health has a significant impact on the ability of our health and care services, with significant proportions of our health budget responding to people's lifestyle choices. Our rate of smoking, alcohol consumption, poor diet, and lack of exercise are putting people's lives at risk. Is it now time to review the public health interventions to find better ways to tackle the poor level of public health and to make this a priority for the NHS and for our nation? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Altaf, for that question. Tackling the public health challenges you've outlined is absolutely a priority for Welsh Government. As you've highlighted, obesity and smoking are drivers of inequalities, given their impact on people's life expectancy and healthy life expectancy, and people who are from the most deprived areas are more likely to be obese or to smoke than those in the least deprived. That's why tackling health inequalities is at the core of our proposals to tackle obesity and to support people to stop smoking. On obesity, we are committing over £13 million of funding to our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' 2022-24 delivery plan to tackle obesity, with action to reduce diet and health inequalities across the population at its core.
On smoking, earlier this year we published our tobacco control strategy, and our first two-year delivery plan for 2022-24, and, in recognition of the health inequalities that arise as a result of smoking, tackling inequality is noted as one of the strategy's core themes. You mentioned physical activity. We're also placing an emphasis on supporting physical and mental well-being and actions such as our forthcoming social prescribing framework will aim to connect people with community support to better manage their health and well-being. Our consultation on that draft framework closed on 20 October, and we're currently analysing responses.

Hywel Dda University Health Board

Paul Davies AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the delivery of health services in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area? OQ58688

Eluned Morgan AC: Hywel Dda University Health Board is responsible for the provision of safe, sustainable, high-quality healthcare services for its local population, based on the best and most up-to-date clinical evidence and advice.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Paul Davies AC: Minister, you'll be aware that demand for an autism assessment continues to be high in west Wales, with waiting times of up to three years. Indeed, I understand that the health board met with Welsh Government officials in July to identify possible funding to assist in waiting list initiatives. Therefore, Minister, can you tell us what support the Welsh Government is offering to Hywel Dda University Health Board to help it reduce waiting times for an autism assessment? And can you also tell us how the Welsh Government is supporting children and their families who are waiting for an assessment?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Well, I know that there has been an issue, in terms of waiting lists for autism, for a long time in the Hywel Dda area. There are initiatives that are under way, of course, and we've had the capacity review, which has identified exactly what we need to put in place. If you don't mind, what I'd like to do is to ask my colleague, Julie Morgan, who is responsible for autism, to give you a more detailed response.

Children Born with Heart Problems

Jack Sargeant AC: 9. How is the Welsh Government working to protect children born with serious heart problems? OQ58694

Eluned Morgan AC: All children are protected by a combination of screening and immunisations, as well as examinations at birth and six weeks, to promote early detection of abnormalities. For children with serious heart problems, the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee commissions a comprehensive range of services.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you for that important answer, Minister. I'm sure you'll be aware of the amazing work done by the Test for Tommy campaign, and they are looking to provide life-saving pulse oximetry machines in maternity wards across the United Kingdom. Minister, I understand that I've just brought this to your attention and I'm asking for your consideration to support the campaign. If you are not able to do that today, would you come back to the Chamber to see if you could make sure the Test for Tommy campaign could be installed and implemented throughout Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I'm very willing to have a look at what the opportunities are and the benefits of doing that. As I say, I met with the Royal College of Midwives today, and the one thing I'm that I'm very aware of is, if you get it wrong in maternity, the costs are absolutely astronomical. So, it's an investment for us to make sure that we don't get it wrong, because, if we get it wrong, it can lead to a lifetime of treatment for those children. So, early intervention—. This is about serious prevention and a situation where we could actually save ourselves a huge amount of money. I'll look specifically into Test for Tommy, and get back to you.

Finally, question 10. Vikki Howells.

Maternity Services in Cwm Taf Morgannwg

Vikki Howells AC: 10. Will the Minister provide an update on work being undertaken to improve the provision of maternity services in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board area? OQ58687

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. On 7 November, I issued a written statement providing an update on the considerable progress achieved by Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board in improving its maternity and neonatal services since 2019. The health board maintains focus on delivering further sustainable improvements in leadership, culture and service integration.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. The announcement that you would be de-escalating Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board's maternity and neonatal services from special measures was very welcome indeed. I think this was testament to the hard work that has gone in from health board staff to deliver the service improvements that the local community, mothers, babies and families, who need to access these services, should rightly be able to expect. In your statement, you noted delivering the culture change that is so critical is an ongoing but longer term piece of work. So, I'd like to ask: how will oversight of this be built into the targeted intervention for the health board's maternity and neonatal services?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I would like to congratulate the staff on the immense amount of work that has gone into turning this department around. It really is quite remarkable; the leadership has been really transformed. And I'd also like to pay tribute to the bravery of the mothers who've really helped us to consider what changes needed to be put in place. So, a huge thank you to them, and it really is—. Their loss, I'm afraid, is dreadful, but I hope that they will get some kind of comfort from the fact that, actually, those services are now being turned around.
In relation to the cultural changes that are needed, they are, of course, undertaking a reorganisation within Cwm Taf Morgannwg at the moment. Improvement Cymru, as part of their intervention, will be undertaking particular support in this area, and this will be assessed through the targeted intervention monitoring framework. So, they've come out of special measures, but they're still in targeted intervention. So, that's where we really keep that oversight, and we will specifically make sure that that cultural shift, that was so important, really continues.

I thank the Minister.

Points of Order

Point of order, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I want to raise a point of order about the behaviour that we all witnessed in this Chamber just a few minutes ago—behaviour that one of my colleagues felt so threatened by that she had to move away from that individual. And also that same behaviour showed huge disrespect to you as the Chair of this institution, and therefore the institution itself.
I've been here for over 15 years, and you've been here a lot longer, and I've never, ever experienced behaviour like that in this Chamber. I just hope, and I'm sure everybody will join me, that it isn't going to be repeated ever at all. It is a place of work, and, when people feel threatened by the behaviour of others in their place of work, especially when it's an elected Chamber and the office of Parliament, I think it is very concerning.
So, I thank you for allowing me to make the point of order. I hope the individual reflects seriously on his behaviour. I know that you asked for an apology. The apology, I think, is owed to all who witnessed it, but not least of all to the individual who felt so threatened and so upset by it. Thank you.

Thank you, Joyce Watson, for articulating some of the thoughts that have clearly gone through a lot of people's minds and have been sent to me here on the front desk, following what was an unacceptable outburst by the Member, and I think shook us all at the time, not only those in close proximity. I spent most of the morning telling a royal guest how well behaved we were as a Chamber in comparison to elsewhere, and I was wrong in that, and I'm sure the Member himself will want to reflect on his behaviour on this day, as well as any other day.
As I said just following the event, I will expect an apology from Gareth—. Gareth Davies—not Gareth Bale, Gareth Davies—before he is called again in this Chamber. That apology will be to me, yes, but it will be for all of us, and our expectations are high in this place, and one Member failed to reach that expectation of behaviour this afternoon. As you've said, Joyce Watson, I'm sure he will be reflecting on that at this point, as well as all of us, and I will expect the apology to come, and I shall make sure that all Members know when that is received.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: A point of order, Presiding Officer. It's not the same point of order.

Yes, okay then—why not?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thanks, Presiding Officer. I concur with the points made by Joyce, and you could hear the sentiment in the thing. But actually my original point of order that I was raising was on behalf of backbench Members who are not frontbench spokespeople. In introducing the substance of the remarks from the individual to my left behind me, he made it clear that he was using the opportunity as a frontbench spokesperson for social care to raise a constituency issue on health. That means that it prevents any other local or regional Members in that area—I'm not included in this particular one—to actually intervene or to come in on supplementary questions. My question—. You may not be able to answer it straight away—I appreciate that, Presiding Officer—but I really would appreciate, as a backbench Member, having some clarity on whether Standing Orders say anything on this, or whether it is indeed just for business managers within the political groups to do it. It seems deeply unfair to backbenchers that they're not able to speak on something that seems to me a misuse of a frontbench spokesperson's role.

Well, as I said during the questions themselves, it is a matter for the Conservatives to decide on what the content of their spokespeople questions is. It surprises me that a political group would choose to have their spokespeople questions focused solely on a constituency—a constituency, one constituency—issue, and I'll reflect on that. There is nothing in Standing Orders to prohibit it, and therefore it's in order, but I think that there are many aspects of that contribution this afternoon that will give us some issues to consider over a longer period of time. Thank you for that.

3. Topical Questions

We'll carry on with the questions, believe it or not, and we'll go to the topical questions. The first this afternoon is from Vikki Howells.

Garth Bakery

Vikki Howells AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the recent news that Garth Bakery has gone into administration? TQ678

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, thank you for the question. It is deeply regrettable that Garth Bakery has gone into administration. The Working Wales and the ReAct+ team, along with Jobcentre Plus, are engaged with the employees, and I understand that assistance has also been offered from the local authority, Rhondda Cynon Taf. ReAct+ will provide tailored information, advice and guidance to the affected staff over the coming days.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. Garth Bakery has been a prominent employer in Cynon Valley and also an important part of the local economy for over 36 years, so the news that it has gone into administration is a grave blow indeed. This is particularly so for the around 100 people who have lost their jobs just six weeks before Christmas. I appreciate the intense distress and worry that this will cause them, and not only them but also their families, especially when we are facing the cost-of-living crisis, which has seen household budgets squeezed as the price of energy and food rockets and inflation reaches its highest level for over 40 years.
I have a couple of questions for you today. Firstly, what support or engagement has Welsh Government had with Garth Bakery? Secondly, please can you outline the practical measures that the Welsh Government can take as a matter of urgency to help the company's workforce who have lost their jobs? That's in terms of support to find work, but also programmes, as you've mentioned, to retrain or reskill, so that new career opportunities can be investigated and pursued, but also in terms of support to access, for example, mental health and well-being advice and targeted interventions around the cost of living. Finally, Minister, with colleagues I am looking to arrange an advice and support open day for employees of Garth Bakery shortly. I've formally written to you about this, but will you be able to make staff from appropriate Welsh Government agencies available, so that they can directly support anyone from the company who requires that support?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, thank you for the questions. I recognise completely your point about the timing of the company going into administration and what it means for workers at this point in the year. And we know that the great majority of fuel bill costs are in this chunk of the year, through autumn, winter and into early spring, and the run-up to the turn of the year and Christmas. But we will and are already providing a range of support, and in the past we've provided opportunities to try to help the business to grow and expand. We've looked to help them with trading opportunities within the UK and, of course, they had agreements with Asda, Co-op and others for the supply of their products. We've also helped them with engagement with the NHS, and the company has made choices about how to run and what to try to do. I don't want to speculate about the reasons they've gone into administration, but our key concern is what will happen to the business and the employees, and the support for them. That's what Working Wales and ReAct+ can and will do.
It's not a workplace that has had a recognised trade union, but I know there is some trade union membership there. So, we'll work with all of the relevant stakeholders to try to provide the support that we can do to help people to get back into the workforce. At the moment, the broadly positive news is that there are still opportunities to work. We're still at a point where the labour market is fairly tight and other employers are looking for workers. So, I think there should be a deal of optimism about people finding alternative work. But I'll certainly make sure, following this question, that at the event that you're organising in the constituency that my officials are as supportive as possible, including in the conversations that they are already having with the Department for Work and Pensions to make sure that there is a coherent offer for that broader range of support available to the affected employees.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I thank Vikki Howells for submitting this question? Obviously, we share the same region, and I've also had a number of constituents raise the concerns here. I would like to associate myself with all of her comments and questions, and it's certainly a really concerning time as it's such a valuable business, as you've outlined, Vikki.
On a slightly different point, the loss of this factory will also lead to significant food-supply challenges for the schools and supermarkets that sold their bread and products. Garth Bakery were responsible for 300,000 rolls every week, and that will be something that is concerning, and I've had contact from people worried about this now.Will the Welsh Government support small local businesses to help address the food shortages likely to arise from this closure?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm not entirely sure there will be food shortages as a result of Garth Bakery no longer existing; it's the challenge in the broader sector, and whether actually there are alternative suppliers. Think about the supermarkets: if you go into broadly any supermarket, you'll find a range of products on the shelves at slightly different price points as well. I'm not aware that there's going to be a challenge in terms of that broader food offer, but on the terms of food supply into schools, for example, I think that is a fair point about one supplier disappearing when actually, of course, schools don't have a chance to reset in that way, which is why the work alongside the council is particularly important to make sure we don't have gaps in that supply. But it's a point that I'll recheck with not just my officials, but also with the education Minister and his contacts within local authorities as well.

I thank the Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for Social Justice and is to be asked by Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Gwent Police

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 2. What is the Government doing to promote community cohesion following serious allegations made about Gwent Police? TQ683

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for this question. These allegations are very serious and I recognise they potentially have implications for community relations. The allegations in the report are shocking. As a Government, we stand against corruption, misogyny, racism and homophobia in all of their forms; it's abhorrent.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Minister. The revelations, as you say, over the weekend about a former Gwent police officer and his colleagues were deeply disturbing. It is abhorrent that racist, misogynistic and sexist material is found on the phone of a police officer. Having met with members of the police federation yesterday, I know they are also disgusted with these serious allegations. If there is a culture of these views within the police, however small, it must be found and thoroughly and transparently investigated. It must then be eradicated swiftly if the public are to have full confidence in the police. Justice must be seen to be done.
What concerns do the Government have over this incident? Will more emphasis be placed on promoting community cohesion in communities where trust in the police is already not the highest, due to previous incidents? And how is the Welsh Government going to help reassure residents of the Gwent Police area and Wales more broadly that they can trust the police, who are there to protect them? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Peredur. As of course you’re aware, policing isn’t devolved to Wales; it’s the responsibility of the UK Government, but we do work together closely with policing partners in Wales and we take this report very seriously. So, I met with the chief constable, Pam Kelly, and the Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent, Jeff Cuthbert, on Monday morning, Monday the fourteenth, after this was revealed over the weekend. I met them to understand more about their response and to emphasise the seriousness with which we view these allegations.
I have to say that chief constable Pam Kelly and Jeff Cuthbert, the police and crime commissioner, made it very clear also that the content is abhorrent, and most importantly in terms of the confidence and trust that people need to have in the police, they said that any officers identified by the investigation as having breached professional standards or the criminal justice threshold will be held accountable.
So, the chief constable confirmed that they were already working at pace to address the issues raised. I’ve asked to be updated regularly on progress; we’ve asked for the matter to be raised at the next policing partnership board for Wales, which I chair with the First Minister. And also I’m aware that the chief constable, Pam Kelly, and the police and crime commissioner led a briefing to Gwent MSs and MPs on Monday.
What we have to say, and I’m sure we share this across the Chamber: it’s vital for the force to take decisive action and an independent investigation by Wiltshire Police is under way. The force has made it clear, and they made it clear to me on Monday, that firm action will be taken, as I’ve said, and I’ve asked for timescales on their inquiry.
Can I just also say that the fact is that chief constable Pam Kelly has made tackling racism and tackling violence against women a priority in her role as chief constable of Gwent? She is very engaged in our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy implementation board, which I’m co-chairing with Dafydd Llywelyn, and is very engaged also with our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. So, we have to get that trust and confidence in the police as a result of the actions that they’ve agreed and promised to us.

I thank the Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The 90-second statements are next, and the first statement this afternoon is from Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Llywydd. It's Global Entrepreneurship Week, and I'd like to take this opportunity to celebrate the fantastic work that our colleges do, helping to kick-start the careers of budding entrepreneurs. Global Entrepreneurship Week is about encouraging people, especially young people, to start their own businesses and highlight the positive impact they can have in terms of innovation and sustainable development, because more and more businesses these days, especially small businesses and entrepreneurs, are turning towards issues of equality, social justice, sustainability, as well as economic growth.
Colleges across Wales and those in my region have worked flat out to support young people who've had to be so resilient in these recent years, offering business support like one-to-one bilingual advice, running webinars and supporting start-ups, and free opportunities to test trade, as well as links to industry and local businesses. At Coleg Sir Gâr, Jackie Stephens, a textiles degree student, has been inspired and supported to start her own hand-weaving business, Studio Cynefin, designing beautiful, sustainable bags and accessories. As she put it, 'The inspiration from course tutors and lecturers, the enthusiasm and support of the college’s employability co-ordinator, Becky Pask, and the practical advice and guidance provided by the college have been invaluable.' So, good look to Jackie and to all our budding entrepreneurs.

The second 90-second statement from Joel James.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Llywydd. Just two days ago, on 14 November, we commemorated World Diabetes Day, and this year there's been the fantastic announcement by the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation and Diabetes UK of a jointly funded early surveillance for auto-immune diabetes study, which is a trial screening programme for type 1 diabetes that has the potential to transform the way the condition is identified and managed in its earliest stages. This, the first programme of its kind in the UK, will aim to recruit 20,000 children aged between three and 13 and assess their risk of developing type 1 diabetes, laying the groundwork for the development of any potential UK-wide screening programme.
While type 1 diabetes is currently managed using insulin, there are new immunotherapy treatments on the horizon that could prevent or delay the condition. This study will be a vital component in helping to roll out those immunotherapies. The risk of type 1 increases with the number of different autoantibodies present in the blood. Those with two or more autoantibodies have an 85 per cent chance of chance of developing type 1 diabetes within 15 years, and it is almost certain that they will develop the condition in their lifetime. Therefore, this research will be life-changing for children found to be at high risk, because it will enable families to be vigilant for the warning signs of diabetic ketoacidosis, which if left untreated can be deadly.
Discovery of a propensity for type 1 diabetes also means that parents and children can be offered support and education, including information on symptoms and management, to help prepare them for the diagnosis of type 1 diabetes. Families will also be given the opportunity to be followed up in the long term, be given the opportunity to enable closer monitoring and, potentially, be given the opportunity to start insulin treatment sooner, which will help manage the condition.
Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of those involved in designing and raising funds for this study, in particular Professor Parth Narendran, professor of diabetes medicine, and Dr Lauren Quinn, clinical research fellow at the University of Birmingham. Thank you.

Motion to elect Members to committees

There is now a motion to elect Members to committees. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Siân Gwenllian.

Motion NNDM8135 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects:
1. Peredur Owen Griffiths (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.
2. Mabon ap Gwynfor (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee.
3. Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Llywydd’s Committee.

Motion moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Formally move.

The proposal is formally moved. Is there any objection? There is none, so the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to elect a Member to the Petitions Committee

The next motion is to elect a Member to the Petitions Committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Siân Gwenllian, once again.

Motion NNDM8134 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.3, elects Rhys ab Owen (Independent) as a member of the Petitions Committee.

Motion moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Formally move.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Motion to approve the Senedd Commission Budget for 2023-24

Item 5 has been withdrawn.

6. Debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee Report—'Digital connectivity—broadband'

Item 6 is next, and that's the debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee Report, 'Digital connectivity—broadband'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Llyr Gruffydd.

Motion NDM8123 Llyr Gruffydd
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee report: ‘Digital connectivity—broadband’, laid on 1 August 2022.

Motion moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm delighted to open this debate in the name of the committee. First of all I'd like to thank all of those stakeholders who contributed to the committee's work, and I'm also very pleased that the Minister has accepted all of the committee's recommendations.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: As a committee, our starting point is that everyone in Wales should be able to access fast broadband. More and more of our lives are lived online—that's how we make appointments; we manage our bank accounts online, many of us; we talk to friends and family online too. And living without access to the internet means a life that is less rich, with less choice, and, very importantly, less access to essential services. And I can speak from personal experience—my children live in a home where there is no broadband worth speaking of. That then has implications in terms of using educational resources, their reliance on paper-based resources, which are far less exciting, and so on, and so forth. So, you can see how the inability to access broadband has a very practical impact on the lives of many people. And unfortunately, the provision of superfast broadband across Wales is uneven, and there is a digital divide between rural and urban areas, particularly. Too many rural areas are still unable to access a decent internet connection.
Because of the mountainous Welsh topography, that does mean that a higher proportion of properties are difficult to reach in Wales, compared with other parts of the UK. Ofcom estimates that around 10,000 premises cannot get decent broadband in Wales—that's 10,000 premises. The situation has improved significantly—and we must acknowledge that—in recent years. The Welsh Government has invested considerable funding in this policy area. As a result of the original Superfast Cymru scheme, which ran from 2012 to 2018, an investment of £220 million was invested to connect about 700,000 premises to superfast broadband. But this is a reserved policy area, and, put simply, it's not sustainable for the Welsh Government to continue redirecting funding from devolved areas to plug funding gaps that are the UK Government's responsibility. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change told us as a committee, and I quote:
'UK funding has failed to reflect the true cost of deploying in the Welsh landscape'.
And I agree entirely with that statement. We need to tackle that funding shortfall. I'm pleased that the Minister has accepted our recommendation as a committee on this issue, but I’m not particularly hopeful that there will be a change of heart from the UK Government on this—we'll see.
So, how do we reach that last 0.6 per cent of properties that can’t access decent broadband? Well, since March 2020, households that can’t get decent broadband can request an upgrade for their connection from BT under the universal service obligation. This obliges BT to improve the connection free of charge if the installation cost is estimated to be below £3,400 for the customer. But if the cost is greater than that cap of £3,400, then the customer must pay the excess. That's not affordable for most people—particularly in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis—and we as a committee have urged the Welsh Government to discuss raising the level of that cap with the UK Government.
In 2020, the National Infrastructure Commission called for the establishment of a barrier-busting task force, to improve the roll-out of digital infrastructure. We supported this as a committee, and I am pleased that the Minister was able to announce last week that the taskforce’s report was being published. We look forward to hearing from the Minister, as he responds to this debate this afternoon, about the conclusions and recommendations of the taskforce, and perhaps he could explain the next steps in terms of acting upon it.
Some contributors suggested making full-fibre connectivity a requirement in all new housing developments. We support that suggestion and believe that the Welsh Government should explore how such a requirement can be introduced in Wales. We were interested to hear also that housing developers are considering digital connectivity when they are planning developments. Indeed, one developer has established its own internet service provider. In one sense, that's a positive step, but we are a little concerned that there is a potential there for developers to tie in homeowners in this way to the provision that they make, excluding all others. This could potentially restrict the choice available to homeowners and make the market less competitive. We have asked the Welsh Government to keep this under review to ensure that there are no inappropriate developments in this area.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: One of our main concerns was, and is, digital inclusion. Although more and more people can access superfast broadband, the cost of access will often be a barrier for many, particularly again during a cost-of-living crisis. There is a risk that broadband access will become a luxury that many will not be able to afford. So, what can be done? Several broadband providers offer lower-cost social tariffs to eligible households. But committee members were shocked that so few take up these social tariffs. Only 3.2 per cent of eligible households are on a social tariff. Now that is woefully low; indeed, it is disgraceful.
Enrolling on social tariffs must be a clearer and simpler process. Consideration should even be given to automatically enrolling eligible households. That's certainly an option, and I'm pleased that the UK Government, since then, has taken steps to make it easier for people to register for social tariffs. I do hope they will have a positive impact. In his response to our report, the Minister has said that officials in the Welsh Government’s digital inclusion unit are exploring ways to raise awareness of social tariffs. I welcome that, and certainly as a committee, we want to see more people benefiting from what they are entitled to.
Migration from landlines to voice over internet protocol was a major concern for groups representing consumers. Many of us, as local Members, will have been involved with this issue. There are potentially significant issues for the most vulnerable people in our society arising as a result of that proposed change. They may be living in a remote or rural area with limited internet access. We are pleased, of course, that the process of migration has been paused, and we have asked the Welsh Government to report back to us as a committee on this issue.
The Welsh Government may wish to consider the approach taken in Scotland, which has, for over five years, had a national programme to support the migration from analogue to digital, specifically for people using telecare and remote health monitoring. Scotland also has a digital telecare roadmap, to support the migration for those most at risk. I would be grateful if the Minister would reflect on these proposals and, if he is not able to respond to them today, that he does provide a written update to us on these issues in due course.
In conclusion, therefore, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to thank the stakeholders who contributed to our work, and to the Minister for his constructive response to our report. There has been significant progress over recent years towards increasing broadband access. We are now down to the last 0.6 per cent—that last 0.6 per cent—and new technologies are becoming available that should make that last push more achievable and, hopefully, more affordable too. But there is no doubt that Government support is needed for these properties. The UK Government must take into account the particular needs of Wales in designing and creating its next funding packages. We cannot redirect funding from devolved areas.
But the most significant challenge for many in society at the moment, of course, will be the cost of access itself. For many, the cost of broadband will be too much and they will be locked out of so many of the services that are accessible online, so many that we take for granted. Access to those will not be available to far too many people in Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I thank our Chairman for his comments just now. I'm really pleased to see that the Welsh Government has accepted all 10 of the main recommendations contained within our committee's report on digital connectivity. I strongly welcome all efforts made to improve digital connectivity, but the committee report does go on to ask questions about the Welsh Government's overall strategy to ensure that we have a digitally connected Wales.
The report notes that, in 2014, 55 per cent of residential premises could access broadband at speeds of 30 Mbps or higher, compared to 75 per cent across the UK. By 2021, this figure had increased to 94 per cent against a UK average of 96 per cent. So, I'm pleased to see the progress, but, as has been eloquently pointed out, we all know areas within our own regions or constituencies where people are really receiving painfully slow broadband.
More and more, people now are wanting to download films, youngsters are wanting to do their homework, so it really is—. It's been classed, hasn't it, as a utility now. It's the fourth utility. I strongly concur with those points. Certainly, in rural isolated communities, it's imperative that people have not just some broadband, but fast broadband.
In particular, the number of Welsh households receiving broadband speeds of 100 'megadoodahs' or faster stands at just 46 per cent in Wales, versus 66 per cent across the UK. Similarly, the number of Welsh households receiving broadband speeds of 300 Mbps or faster stands at just 44 per cent in Wales, versus 65 per cent across the UK. So, we want to level up the broadband here.
I strongly support the establishment of the barrier-busting taskforce mentioned within the report to consider ways to improve the roll-out of digital infrastructure learning from the most successful local examples and ensuring that developers and authorities work together in a true public-private partnership, as highlighted by Ogi in their submission.
I note in your response that you accepted the committee's recommendation that you engage with the UK Government on the development of new public initiatives to ensure that they do meet the particular needs of Wales and that the Welsh Government should report back on progress within the next six months. I look forward to that reporting back as scheduled.
I also note with interest the Welsh Government's engagement with the calls from DCMS for evidence on connecting very hard-to-reach premises, and we've all got those, for which there will be a further chance to provide a formal response to an anticipated consultation on this issue later this year. So, I do hope that the Minister commits to working with the Secretary of State for culture, Michelle Donelan MP, the Right Honourable, to make sure that all levels of Government are working together to implement the recommendations of the committee's report. Because, ultimately, we are one united nation and we perform best when we do work together as Governments to solve these complex problems.
This is an issue of vital importance to my constituents in Aberconwy, as those facing connectivity problems are disproportionately likely to be elderly or to be living in rural or remote communities. According to research conducted by the National Federation of Women's Institutes Wales, over 50 per cent of respondents from rural areas did not feel that the internet that they had access to was either fast or reliable, and 66 per cent stated that they or their household had been impacted by poor broadband. Fifty-seven per cent of those from a rural area described the mobile signal in their house as unreliable, and 49 per cent of those—

Alun Davies AC: Will the Member take an intervention?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, sure.

Alun Davies AC: I'm listening with great interest to your contribution. The numbers that you're reading out are an extraordinary indictment of the United Kingdom Government and their failure to deliver on what is a reserved matter. Will you be joining us in supporting the Welsh Government in telling the UK Government it's time to pull their finger out and actually remember that Wales is a part of this UK and we deserve the same services as they deliver on the other side of the border?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Well, I beg to differ with my colleague from over on those benches there, but, actually, the UK Government, over the years, has provided significant resources, and the actual roll-out has been the responsibility of the Welsh Government. So, let's put the blame where the blame lies—

Alun Davies AC: It's a non-devolved function.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: No, I'm sorry—[Interruption.] I'm allowed a little bit of extra time.

Let the Member conclude. She has half a minute left to conclude her contribution.

Alun Davies AC: It's a non-devolved function; [Inaudible.]—spend money on it.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: This report was on behalf of our committee in this Welsh Parliament about the ability of this Welsh Government to deliver on its promises in terms of broadband. They've actually accepted all recommendations. That tells me, and it tells everybody out there, that that work needs to be done, and that the Welsh Government is failing. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you to the committee for all of its work on this issue. I'm not sure whether the previous speaker had read the report in its entirety.

Luke Fletcher AS: The recommendations in the committee's report and the positive response from Welsh Government are very welcome. We only need to look back as recently as lockdown to see how important it is to have sufficient access to broadband. It was one of the very few avenues many of us had to avoid isolation and stay connected to friends and loved ones. The pandemic forced us to ask questions on how we best bring resources to bear on pressing societal challenges, and I was very recently reminded of this when I visited Bridgend College's Pencoed campus. Several students recounted their lockdown experiences there and how their lack of access to decent broadband and hardware, such as laptops, meant that they fell behind on school work, or had to use their mobile data. One student told me how she had practically missed out on a year's worth of education because of her Wi-Fi being so poor.
In the age of digital literacy and connectivity, communities without access to the internet are at an overall disadvantage, not only socially, but also in terms of education and employability. This is especially so since the pandemic, with more jobs being offered remotely. Remote working affords people the chance to work from home, remain in their communities, contribute to local economies and, ultimately, remain in Wales, but it isn't possible for everyone. In light of this, the Welsh Government's acceptance of all the committee's recommendations is heartening. That said, it is still concerning that, according to digital inclusion research from the Welsh Government, 7 per cent of adults are not online. The same research shows that this inequality feeds into and has the potential to exacerbate wider inequality. So, for example, those who are digitally excluded are some of the biggest users of health and social care services, and therefore risk being left behind when it comes to digital-by-default services. Ofcom also estimates that around 10,000, or 0.6 per cent of premises in Wales cannot get a decent broadband service of at least 10 Mbps per second downloading speed, and 1 Mbps per second upload speed. I look forward to seeing any progress on ensuring that this final 1 per cent of people have access to decent broadband, as recommended by the committee.
We need to engrain the idea that, today, the internet is far from a luxury; it is a necessary and enabling service and something that everyone must be able to have access to in a modern society. Older people, those living with disabilities, the unemployed and low waged, those living in rural areas and many other groups of people are all at risk of being left behind. While I'm aware that several broadband providers offer lower cost social tariffs to eligible households, uptake of these is minimal. As we've already heard, only 3.2 per cent of households receiving universal credit are on a social tariff, as of September 2022. And, as I mentioned in the Chamber recently, I believe that it is incumbent on Government to ensure that people are aware of what support is available to them.
But it is safe to say that the UK Government has been failing us here in Wales in this reserved area of competency, making us spend the millions on infrastructure and other areas where they should have been investing to ensure that everyone has access to adequate broadband. That's money spent by the Welsh Government where it shouldn't have to be spent, and money we could have invested elsewhere, had the UK Government been investing properly. That's money that could have gone towards helping struggling families during the cost-of-living crisis, for example. This is quite simply not good enough. We deserve better. Our communities, which are currently without connection, deserve better. This is one of the reasons that I am a vocal advocate of universal basic services. It is certainly my hope that, over the course of the coming years and decades, our vision of what services should be universally available will continue to expand and come to encompass a service such as universal basic broadband.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Urgent action is needed to ensure that no community, no business and no household is left behind to prevent inequality. A Women's Institute survey found that over 50 per cent of respondents from a rural area did not feel that their internet was fast and reliable, and 66 per cent stated that they or their household had been impacted by poor broadband. They had difficulties in obtaining information, contacting providers and knowing what funding is available. So, we need to make every contact count, perhaps adding it to the cost-of-living grant support available.
Service providers need to play their role and commit to improving communication with their customers about the services available, accessing social tariffs. Going forward, for broadband infrastructure to be cost effective, it will need to be designed comprehensively, with long-term benefits in mind that serve everyone, including those in rural areas. In Liverpool, a joint venture project has been championed by Liverpool city metro mayor, Steve Rotheram. This partnership means that public investment gives the authority a stake in the organisation, and in turn, rather than profitability being the only concern, social benefit is also at the heart of the broadband project. And the public can continue to reap the benefits for years to come.Such a joint venture project would be in the interests of the Welsh public. So, it would be good if officials and Ministers would be willing to investigate such an option to dynamically drive forward digital connectivity in north Wales and the rest of Wales, which is currently happening on a very piecemeal, very slow, basis.
Given the various statements in the report on digital connectivity stressing that the solutions required to bridge the digital divide between rural and urban areas require a mix of fixed and fibre wireless access, it’s pleasing that the Welsh Government has had the foresight to support the Bangor University digital signal processing initiative to provide such a hybrid solution on Anglesey, and I hope that this will be successfully rolled out. A member of the consortium was told by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport—the UK Government department—that it would be another two years before north Wales would see any investment, as other areas were a priority for the UK Government’s £5 billion infrastructure fund. So, we need to keep pushing for it to happen now, and for it to happen in Wales, and not make it a low priority for the UK Government.
Could the Minister please reinforce the Government’s desire to push the initiative forward in Anglesey to the delivery phase as soon as possible? It reflects the most up-to-date thinking in terms of the solutions required to provide digital connectivity and services to the most challenging rural locations, so that it could be rolled out across Wales—north and mid Wales.
In addition, can we ensure that we utilise to the maximum any existing fibre and mass platforms to minimise the cost of deployment, and so avoiding the unnecessary risk of funding duplicate infrastructure, with the aim of providing an open access network platform for any carrier to provide services to our rural communities? I’m told that there is dark fibre openly available that is Welsh Government owned and was installed with European funding a while ago, and that not all providers are using or promoting this—or may be aware of it, preferring to draw down more public funding to install their network. That needs investigating.
With more reliance on online communication for health, employment, business grants and education, we need more decent broadband connectivity for people. And I agree that it should be recognised as an essential service. Thank you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the committee, ably chaired by my colleague Llyr Gruffydd here, for this report. It's a report that is particularly relevant to Dwyfor Meirionnydd. I want to focus specifically on the section that mentions connecting those who have been left behind.I must express my great disappointment in the rather dismissive attitude of some providers and others in the field towards the 1 per cent, or indeed more, of people who cannot and will not be able to access the internet. There is mention made of using other technologies, such as mobile phones or satellites, but this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of our rural communities. Look at Dwyfor Meirionnydd; there is no access to phone signal in many parts, and getting a satellite connection is either impossible due to the mountainous terrain or is more costly and less dependable.
There are businesses in Islawr-dref near Dolgellau, for example, that have tried their best to get an internet connection, but the costs they face are in the tens of thousands of pounds. One business owner and their family are now looking to move to Shrewsbury due to this failure to access the internet and their ensuing inability to run their business. There is a family in Cwm Pennant who are key workers and have to work from home, and while every home nearby has received an internet connection—every one of which is a holiday home or summer home, by the way—they haven’t been able to connect, and they have received a quote for over £74,000 to install the relevant infrastructure. As a family who've lived in that place for several generations, they now have to look to move out of the area.
The community in Brithdir has successfully come together to make up the necessary numbers to receive vouchers so that BT can install the infrastructure there, but despite repeated attempts for a year and more, they are still waiting for the work to be completed, years later. I was in Criccieth last week, and businesses there are losing money because there are significant issues with the phone mast providing a signal to the payment terminals in shops and businesses, with local workers such as builders dependent on the same phone signal to undertake their business too. The whole thing has been down since 18 October, and no response has been made and there is no sign of repairs being made. This is the reality of life in a rural community. And as you can see, these problems, be they related to the internet or phone signal, are common in the areas that we represent, and the way that the major corporations and providers disregard and ignore them is entirely appalling.
So, as my colleagues Luke Fletcher and Carolyn Thomas said, internet access is one of the basic requirements of life in the modern age. Yes, it sounds strange, but it’s true. It is vital, for example, for school work, farming, running a business in terms of sales and marketing, keeping in touch with others and so on. All of us here, I’m sure, is reliant on WhatsApp to keep in touch and share information. If we’re dependent on this work and on this technology, then the same is true of the people we represent in our rural communities. All of us here film items to be posted on the internet, for example, and people in our communities do the same. Children talk to each other; they ask whether they’ve seen the most recent Netflix programme or YouTube, have they seen PewDiePie on YouTube and so on, and the children in Cwm Pennant and so on say, ‘No, I’m afraid I haven’t seen that programme’, and they’re bullied or they’re excluded from conversations.
So, recommendation 3 in this excellent report is crucial, but I’d like to suggest that the Government should not give Openreach a monopoly going forward. That experiment has let down too many of our communities and has given too much of Wales’s public funding to one major external corporation. That experiment has failed. Instead, local co-operative providers and companies should be promoted, learning from the good practice of companies such as Guifi in Catalunya, HSLnet in the Netherlands or B4RN in Lancashire. That is the way ahead. Thank you very much.

Alun Davies AC: Like others, I want to thank the committee for this report and for this short investigation. I thought the points made by the committee Chair in opening this debate were well made, and established a very clear group of findings, which I’m glad the Welsh Government has responded to. But the reality is that we need the UK Government to respond to this as well. And I'm participating in this debate because I’ve listened to the contributions this afternoon, and many have focused on the needs of rural Wales, describing this as an issue facing rural areas. But I have to tell you, it isn’t. This is not about rural communities. This is about some of our most densely populated urban areas as well. If you go to parts of Cardiff, you have some significant issues with lack of access to sufficiently fast broadband speeds. And in my constituency in Blaenau Gwent, you have a number of different parts of the community that simply cannot access the broadband speeds they require to participate in aspects of modern life, as you've described, Mabon, but also the businesses that operate there are unable to access markets because they simply cannot match the broadband speeds that other parts of the UK are able to do.
So, this isn't about rural Wales versus urban Wales—this is about a failure of the UK system to deliver for the whole of Wales. This is why I think this report is so important. The Welsh Government has invested over the years. I remember speaking to Ministers over a long period of time now about the need to invest in broadband, in different sorts of broadband, over the years, but let's be absolutely clear where the failure lies here, and the failure lies with a UK system that simply does not deliver for Wales. It is a failure of the market. The market is not delivering the sorts of broadband speeds and connectivity that people require. It is a failure of regulation, because the regulator isn't ensuring that the market delivers. And finally, it is a failure of Government, because the Government is allowing the regulation to fail.
So, it's a failure of the system. And I'm going to help out Janet Finch-Saunders now, if she—. Here we go, got her attention. Because this isn't simply a failure of the current Conservative Government, but it is. It was also a failure under previous Labour Governments, and the system that was set up by the Blair Government, of Ofcom and the rest of it, had in its roots failure, because it focused on the—[Interruption.] I will allow you to intervene, just allow me to finish the sentence; we'll do a deal on that, surely. Ofcom was established to look at the rights and responsibilities of consumers, and not the rights of citizens, and it was that debate that I believe was lost when Ofcom was being established 20 years ago. I give way.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I was just going to say: will the Member at least recognise that we do have devolution, and, in instances where you have a situation like this, significant sums of money have come from the UK Government? So, some of those failings that you indicate, you can't blame them, when they've gone on and rolled out their broadband very quickly indeed. If there are any delays in the rolling of it out here, you cannot deny the millions of pounds—

Alun Davies AC: Janet, Janet, Janet, don't—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Can you deny the millions of pounds that have come in here from the UK Government?

Alun Davies AC: I don't deny anything; I don't need to. It's a failure I'm describing. It's not about expenditure; it's about delivering on the objectives of policy, and that is where the failure lies. And you don't need to defend everything the UK does. Sometimes, it fails, and this is an example of failure, and it isn't just Government failure, as I've said to you—it's market failure, and a failure of regulation. And the power of your argument is greater when you recognise that, and don't simply try to defend everything, no matter how dreadful it actually is. I recognise the work that this Minister is doing, and I recognise the work that his predecessors have done, but, fundamentally, the Conservatives went into the last election telling the Welsh Government they shouldn't spend money or resources on anything that isn't devolved. Now you seem to be arguing that they should be delivering on policies that aren't devolved, which is some political acrobatics that are beyond me. I give way to Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Are you unaware that the Welsh Government agreed from the outset in 2011 that they would decide how to use and match fund the UK Government funding they received, by agreement, to roll out superfast broadband across Wales?

Alun Davies AC: I remember debating this with Ieuan Wyn Jones long before 2011, and Angela Burns led the work on that at that time. So, this goes back for many, many years. But I'm not here simply trying to allocate blame in the way that you are simply trying to describe here, because I think there's a failure, a systemic failure, here of the system that delivers broadband. And although we can point fingers back and forth in the Chamber if you wish to, that's a sterile exercise. It achieves nothing, because what we are not doing is addressing the roots of the failure. I want to see the Welsh Government—and I won't test your patience any longer, Deputy Presiding Officer—I want to see the Welsh Government working together with Members of the Senedd to ensure that the system that is in place works for Wales. That means that Ofcom is empowered or told to deliver regulation that delivers for the citizens of Wales, wherever they live, that the UK Government funds the work that they need to fund, and, where there is market failure, there is intervention to correct that failure. But for too often we've allowed telecommunication companies to make far too much money, frankly, on the backs of not serving the citizens that we represent, and that is a significant failure of policy over a period of 20 years. And that failure of policy affects communities in every part of this country, and we need to address that failure of policy, and not score pretty low-level political points in this Chamber on a Wednesday afternoon.

I call the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. First of all, I'd like to thank the committee for its work on the report, which succinctly highlights those areas where we are continuing to make progress, and further progress, indeed, is required. We can all agree that digital connectivity is an essential service. I also agree that I would like it to be treated properly as a public utility, with all of the requirements that come with that, including from the service providers. It is also undeniably a reserved matter for the UK Government, but we continue to step in to support residents and businesses, to help them to get the connectivity that they need with devolved resources. That challenge will become more difficult as our financial resources are becoming more and more challenged. I do thank Members for their broadly constructive contributions, and I recognise the back and forth between Alun Davies and Janet Finch-Saunders, but it's a matter of fact, not opinion, that this is reserved not devolved; it's a matter of fact, not opinion, that we have put devolved resources into adding on to the money that has been invested in Wales to try to resolve the issue, and it's simply a matter of fact that all the resources to date have not been designed to deliver 100 per cent connectivity.
The UK Government recently embarked on a £5 billion—that was the headline at the time—Project Gigabit to ensure, and this is their words, that all premises in the UK have access to gigabit-capable broadband; I think it's gigabit capable, rather than gigadoodah. The original target was that this would be delivered by 2025, but that was then revised by the UK Government to 85 per cent of UK premises by 2025, and all UK premises by 2030. Confusingly, 'all premises' doesn't actually mean all premises, because the UK Government is also developing plans for tackling what it calls 'very hard to reach premises' across the UK. And Alun Davies is right: some of those premises will be in rural communities, and some will be in urban communities.
Now, I recognise what many Members have said, that digital connectivity is critical for people to stay connected and do more than just survive. We know that increases to the cost of living are already having a huge impact on individuals, families, communities and businesses. We're exploring the effects on delivery of the digital strategy for Wales and how our digital and data policy can help deliver for the most vulnerable in our society. Members will be familiar with our efforts to improve broadband connectivity. We've invested £56 million from devolved resources to help with the full fibre roll-out and provide broadband-capable gigabit speeds to around 39,000 homes and businesses by March next year. Our Access Broadband Cymru grant has helped thousands to improve their broadband speeds, and our local broadband fund has supported local authorities and social enterprises to improve the connectivity of whole communities.
We made it clear, in our response to the committee, that we would continue to engage with the UK Government on its plans to tackle hard-to-reach premises and to continue to make the case for UK Government investment in this reserved area to connect the very hardest to reach premises across Wales. We share the committee's concerns about the switch-off of the public service telephone network. My officials have raised those concerns with the UK Government and the industry, and, in particular, that the move to voice over IP will leave customers vulnerable in the event of power outages. I cautiously welcome the UK Government's commitment to raise the value of its gigabit vouchers. We previously provided a top-up to this UK voucher scheme to reflect the potentially higher costs of providing connections in a landscape like Wales, but, of course, we have a UK Government commitment to deliver right across the UK. We have written previously to the UK Government, suggesting that they look at the funding ceilings, and we now wait to see how effective and significant an increase will be delivered or not by the UK Government. We agree that the universal service obligation cost cap needs to be revised. We've seen costs being quoted to residents and businesses running into tens of thousands of pounds, way above the £3,400 cap. That disadvantages the very premises that the universal service obligation was meant to address.
We're developing proposals to amend building regulations, as the Chair mentioned in opening, to try to ensure consistency across all new-build housing developments, so that residents can enjoy gigabit-capable broadband. We intend to undertake a consultation on these proposals shortly. And we recognise that digital inclusion is a social justice and equalities issue. People need to be confident to use the internet and digital technology to overcome other disadvantages that they might face. We know that digital access plays a significant role in society, as a number of Members mentioned. Whether it's for people to engage with health services, to reduce feelings of loneliness and isolation by remaining in contact with friends and families or, indeed, continuing to work and access learning. However, there do remain people who choose not to participate in the new digital world, or the standard digital world we've all become used to, and those who cannot afford the costs associated with being online. That's yet another impact of the cost-of-living crisis. We cannot afford for our citizens to be at a social or financial disadvantage, based on their right to choose whether they engage with digital. Therefore, as stated in our response to the committee, we'll continue to engage with the UK Government on their work leading on social tariffs.
We'll also reach out to key stakeholders, including Ofcom, regarding social tariff sign-up—and I recognise the points that were made about the regulator's area of responsibility and the reach or otherwise of the choices it has made to date. I'm especially interested in default costs. They're often much higher than when you're tied in to contract rates. That's especially relevant now. If you think about all the things we talk about on all sides of this Chamber around the cost of living, to then ask people who are concerned about their ability to remain in work and meet their bills, and the contrast between heating and eating, to then ask them to sign up to a year, 18 months or two years of a contract, when they may not be able to afford that, is a real challenge now. And of course, that then means they are potentially paying a much higher cost month to month. And just as there has been some reform with energy utilities on what happens when you run into a default, we think this is another area where further reform is required with real urgency.
I will consider carefully the comments that Members have made in the debate. There have been a number of comments made by Members on each side, and rather than try to respond to one or two of them now, I'll try to consider those and then see how we respond. Because I do think, on some of those, we will need to give further thought, with colleagues across the Chamber and in Government, and the potential for follow-up with them. But I know that the committee will retain an interest in this area, because we're committed, as I believe the committee is, to, as Alun Davies described—. And it's dangerous to quote Alun Davies, but I agree that we need a system that works for Wales, rural and urban, and that's what I believe we and indeed the committee are committed to trying to deliver.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd, the Chair of the committee, to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch yn fawr. Can I thank everybody who has contributed? And at the risk of becoming embroiled in this debate as to who's responsible for what, I think it's pretty clear; the first substantive section of our report as a committee, on page 2, starts with the words 'Telecommunications is a reserved matter', so it is clear. But that doesn't absolve the Welsh Government from some responsibility, because there are other areas of policies, such as planning, for example, that have a key role to play, leveraging private investment through various initiatives as well. There's plenty that everybody could be doing to try and further the agenda that we're all supportive of here, regardless of who we think is primarily at fault for this, that and the other.
But, of course, as a committee, we can't make recommendations to the UK Government, because they're not beholden to our committee in any way, therefore our very first recommendation is to the Welsh Government to engage with the UK Government, because that's the only way we can do it, to ensure that they do develop new initiatives to meet the particular needs of Wales. And I have to say, the reality is—and there's no getting away from this, regardless of who you think is to blame—the money being provided by the UK Government does not reflect the particular issues we have in Wales, and I mentioned the mountainous topography, et cetera; it's more expensive to roll out broadband in Wales than it is in other parts of the UK. The UK Government doesn't recognise that in its funding, and that is why the Welsh Government has stepped up and plugged that gap. But, in the current economic climate, the Welsh Government cannot justify continuing to do that. So, you can't have it both ways. We have to focus on devolved matters here primarily. Yes, we can do other things, but the reality is that the UK Government have to step up now and reflect the true cost of rolling out broadband in Wales, which is something they haven't done for many, many years.
Luke referred to this as a necessary and enabling service, and referenced older people, those with disabilities, younger people, and unemployed people looking for work. And that reminded me, actually, that there is another element in our report about some possible disconnect between Government policies here, because one of the policies is for 30 per cent of the workforce to be working from home in future, based on climate considerations, et cetera. Well, many of these people will not be able to work from home because of a failure of policy in this particular area. The digital first policy, in terms of if you are applying for a basic payment, then as a farmer you have to primarily use the digital means of applying for that, but, of course, they are the very people who have probably the least access, as a profession, to being able to do that. So, I think we do need to join up some of the thinking around this as well.
Carolyn, I'm glad you mentioned the Bangor University DSP initiative. I'm visiting tomorrow morning, so I can't wait, really, to learn about some of the innovative solutions that they're bringing forward there, especially for some of the rural communities.
Mabon ap Gwynfor mentioned the vouchers system, and the Minister mentioned the Welsh Government top-up. Of course, what's unfortunate is that I now have constituents of mine who were preparing themselves and waiting for vouchers to come through, dependent on the Welsh Government funding as part of that, who are now left without that funding, meaning that the whole proposal collapses. It's unfortunate that maybe some of those who were at a certain point should have still been able to access some funds, and maybe the Minister could consider whether some particular support is available for those. Although, some of those that were part of those initiatives have now peeled away and done their own thing, and the whole thing is maybe not as viable as it would have been, and that is very unfortunate. And, of course, it's the Welsh Government that gets it then for pulling the plug, whereas, of course, we've spoken about who maybe should have been funding that in the first place.
Thank you, Alun, for reminding us about the remit of Ofcom. I think you're right; there was a strategic mistake there in terms of focusing on consumers, although, of course, that's the nature of the beast. But, we are looking here about access for everyone in terms of broadband and the wider needs of citizens rather than a particular focus on consumers.
Minister, I am grateful that you've accepted all of our recommendations. Consensus has broken out, on that front at least, but, of course, it remains to be seen whether action and change will follow, whoever is responsible for achieving that, but certainly, we as a committee will be revisiting this area regularly over coming months and years to ensure that no stone is left unturned in terms of connectivity, and that no business and no household is left behind. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't hear any objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee Report— 'Cost of living pressures'

Item 7 is a debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'Cost of living pressures'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Paul Davies.

Motion NDM8129 Paul Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee: 'Cost of living pressures' which was laid in the Table Office on 28 July 2022.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion tabled in my name.
Dirprwy Lywydd, last week we debated our report on the recovery of the tourism, hospitality and retail sectors in Wales, and how the cost of living and the cost of doing business was affecting them. This week, we debate our report into some of the most pressing issues our communities face: how cost-of-living pressures have been affecting households and workers; the impact of rising costs of doing business; and the particular needs of our rural communities.
In this inquiry, we examined the effectiveness of the support measures that the Welsh and UK Governments have put in place, and what further support might be needed over the coming months. We were clear that we wanted to build on the work of other Senedd committees rather than reinventing the wheel, and the committee is very grateful to all those who gave evidence to our inquiry.
Back in the summer, the escalating cost of living was already being felt across Wales and affecting almost every area of public and private life. With wages and fixed incomes not stretching as far, people were tightening their belts and making difficult choices. Businesses were facing a double whammy of increased costs and consumers reducing their discretionary spending. And all of these issues are amplified in rural communities, which face a rural premium for accessing goods and services. Of course, things have moved on significantly since we reported in late July, but even then we were looking ahead to how businesses and individuals could be supported through the autumn and winter period we now find ourselves in. The Minister has provided a very comprehensive response to this report, in a timely manner, which I believe reflects the importance of action in this area.

Paul Davies AC: Now, our report contains 27 recommendations in five areas. We focused on: the support that was available from the Welsh Government and the UK Government in May and June of this year, and where the gaps were; the pressures on households at that time; the pressure on the workforce; the impact on rural communities; and the pressure on businesses. I'm pleased that 23 of the recommendations were accepted, with the remaining four accepted in principle. There is a lot to welcome in the Welsh Government's response, and I thank the Minister for his positive engagement with our report and recommendations.
Our first five recommendations relate to ensuring that the Welsh Government is gathering enough data and the right kind of data to understand where the need is greatest and to ensure that the money available is being directed in the best possible way. We heard some concerning evidence about the scale of the challenge for people trying to access support, and so the fact that these five recommendations were all accepted is very welcome.
Our sixth recommendation was about maximising awareness and take-up of the benefit support out there for individuals, and Welsh Government's efforts in this regard are also welcomed. This includes the work being done through the 'Claim what's yours' campaign, and the income maximisation working group, which is referenced in response to our seventh recommendation. The committee would be grateful for any updates on this work from the Minister as we move through the winter period and into the spring of 2023, and perhaps in responding to this debate we'll hear a bit more about the work that has taken place.
I'd also like to pay tribute to those providing advice and support services to people who are feeling the pressures the most right now. Their work is not always fully recognised, and we heard the strain that they themselves are under as they try to support others in their community. Indeed, we're very grateful to a number of organisations that participated in focus groups and interviews run by the Senedd's citizen engagement team. The findings of that work are available on our website and reflected in our report.
Action in Caerau and Ely, ACE, was one of those grass-roots organisations supporting people on low incomes, and their evidence highlights a particularly important aspect of the inquiry. They made the very important point that it's only of any benefit if you know about it. Now, as well as raising awareness of what support is available, a key message from our inquiry was that more could be done to rationalise the process of applying for support. Dr Steffan Evans of the Bevan Foundation pointed out the vast amount of form filling that people are required to carry out just to get money they are entitled to, and he urged the Welsh Government to accelerate work in this area.
There is a consensus that the system needs to be more coherent, and recommendations 8, 9 and 10 call for better passporting of benefits, more co-ordination, and streamlining of services in a one-stop-shop approach. We welcome the Welsh Government's response on this point, and welcome the fact that a benefit charter is currently being developed. We also recognise that some local authorities are further ahead of the game, and we want this best practice to become the norm.
Recommendation 11 is particularly pertinent, as it refers to eligibility for support beyond means-tested benefits, and highlights the plight of those families who may be just missing out. It's vital that the Welsh Government recognises this in the criteria for its winter fuel support scheme, and I hope the Minister will take this recommendation into account with the design of future schemes.
I thank the Minister for the response to recommendation 12 on how the Welsh Government's discretionary homelessness prevention grant will help to mitigate the reduction in discretionary housing payments, and the committee notes that Ministers will continue dialogue with the UK Government on what funds will be available in the 2023-24 budget to tackle cost-of-living pressures.
Now, not all the committee's recommendations were accepted in full, and I am a little puzzled why our call for the Welsh Government to drive the accreditation of public sector employers as real living wage employers has only been accepted in principle. We also recommended that the Welsh Government should explore using its levers around public sector pay and conditions to increase fair work in Wales, including by improving sick pay, where this is needed for workers delivering public services, starting with longer term arrangements for social care workers, and supporting those with the lowest earnings via pay settlements. Nevertheless, I note that the Welsh Government's response points to the arm's-length work of Cynnal Cymru to promote the benefits of the real living wage for workers in Wales, which is particularly appropriate to recognise this week, as it's Living Wage Week.
It's also good to see, in response to recommendation 15, that the Minister and the committee are on the same page with initiatives to promote fair work. Likewise, with recommendation 16, our report highlights the importance of good labour market data to support the Welsh Government's policy response in the face of cost-of-living pressures on the Welsh economy.
Mental ill health is a huge concern in the face of these cost-of-living pressures, and the committee heard some very concerning evidence from the trade unions and grass-roots organisations about the impact that financial worries are having on people. Some of the comments that we've received through the committee's engagement work included things like, and I quote:
'I'm afraid to put the heating on',
'I feel sick and can't eat',
'We earn a good wage but can't cope with the bills',
and, 'I'm a prisoner in my own home.' Therefore, encouraging employers to support their workers through these difficulties is critical, and so we rightly made a specific recommendation about this.
Dirprwy Lywydd, as I mentioned at the very start of my contribution, other Senedd committees have also done important work on cost-of-living issues. For example, the Equality and Social Justice Committee had already made important recommendations about fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme in May, two months before the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee report was indeed published. So, it's vital that Members recognise that this is one part of a large piece of work on scrutinising Government support to meet the rising cost of living.
Dirprwy Lywydd, another important focus of our report was on the struggles faced by off-grid households and those in rural communities, where there is a rural premium for accessing goods and services. We know there are multiple factors at play here: rurality, reliance on more expensive forms of heating fuel, increased costs of transportation, isolation, the pressures on our farming communities to meet soaring feed, fertiliser and fuel costs. Therefore, recommendations 19 to 23 cover measures to support off-grid households with fuel costs and the provision of warm hubs, which have been introduced now in Wales, and more research and analysis around the needs of rural communities. It's good to hear that rural issues are being given particular consideration for future iterations of the Warm Homes programme, and I look forward to hearing more about this work in due course.
Our last four recommendations are around support for business to cope with the increased costs of doing business. The Welsh Government pointed out that many levers sit at the UK level to provide additional financial firepower to meet the challenges, and that the Barnett consequentials used for COVID support in previous years are not there for 2022-23. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government accepted our recommendation about supporting Welsh businesses to become more energy efficient, and not to lose sight of net-zero targets in the face of the financial challenges.
Finally, with regard to ongoing non-domestic rate relief for businesses, we note the commitment to review the need for further transitional support in 2023, and the committee looks forward to hearing more about how the Welsh Government will be using business rates relief to support the most affected businesses in Wales at this very difficult time.
In closing, I'd like to repeat my thanks to everyone who engaged with the committee during our work on this important issue, and also thank the team who supported the committee to carry out this inquiry. I look forward to hearing Members' contributions to this very important debate. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'll start, as we always tend to in these debates, and thank the Chair for his expert way in how he chairs our committee, as well as all the work the clerks do as well, and in particular the evidence we received from various stakeholders and community action groups. I'll highlight the Caerau and Ely action group, much like the Chair did, and refer to their point around it only being of benefit if you know about it. I think that's a vitally important point. It links with my previouscontribution relating to broadband social tariffs. But it also highlights the need to raise awareness of what is available to people. And of course, I fundamentally think people should receive what they're entitled to anyway as a default.
But if I could start with businesses. It is no secret that the cost-of-living crisis is tearing through Welsh high streets as warnings of a lost generation of small and independent businesses continue to loom large. The impact of soaring inflation and skyrocketing energy prices has been felt by traders, many of whom have been forced to close their doors for good or are considering doing so. The cost-of-living crisis is running in tandem with a cost-of-doing-business crisis—something that is well documented in our committee's report. Prices are surging for business at the same time that working people are having to reduce their spending. It’s very much a double-whammy.
It’s worth noting here that this spending by working people isn’t for luxuries either—many can’t afford the necessities. The considerable increases in fuel poverty, predicted to follow the energy cap rise in April, whereby 45 per cent of Welsh households are expected to contend with grinding fuel poverty, are expected to coincide with possibly the biggest fall in disposable income since records began in the 1950s. On top of this, many businesses are still recovering from the pandemic. I mentioned small, independent businesses and it’s these that are being hit the hardest in certain sectors. The Federation of Small Businesses reported that there has been an average gas bill hike of 250 per cent for small businesses and that 96 per cent of these are concerned about their rising energy bills.
Energy-intensive industries are also suffering—not just the ones that immediately come to mind, such as steel, but also ones that I’ve been vocal about, such as breweries and hospitality. For example, Bang-On Brewery, a local brewery in my region, in Bridgend, have seen their bills increase in an eye-watering way. For example, they've seen a 549 per cent increase in their new utility contract; a 68 per cent increase in their new premises lease; a 165 per cent increase in brewers grain since the beginning of 2021, with a further 70 per cent increase being introduced in January 2023, and an 80 per cent increase in vehicle running costs in the past year. If you add all that up, just to stay where they are, they will need to find an additional £198,000 after tax to survive. Under those costs, the new trade price of a bottle of beer would have to be £12.53 per bottle plus VAT. I don’t know many people, if anyone really, who would consider paying that for a bottle of beer.
Costs such as these are just some of the myriad ways that this crisis is debilitating an already hamstrung hospitality industry. Sectors like hospitality, retail and tourism are hypervulnerable to people’s discretionary spending. The report notes that sectors under significant pressures are at an increased risk of offloading cost-of-living pressures onto employees. Many working in sectors such as hospitality will have no collective bargaining beyond zero-hours contracts or no written contracts, and working hours that can be confirmed, cancelled or changed at the whim of a text message or phone call.
The executive director for Wales of UKHospitality has said that 13,000 Welsh jobs are at risk if there is no help for the industry. And from this, we can see the cyclical nature of this crisis. The cost-of-living crisis and the cost-of-doing-business crisis are intimately bound up with each other and its impact on working class people is devastating. Livelihoods are at stake.
Something noted by the Trades Union Congress in the report was the lack of an adequate understanding of these levels of precarity, and they’re absolutely right. In-work poverty, low pay and insecure employment are no longer marginal or provisional in certain sectors—it’s simply a fact of life for many. Not only does it serve to bring about a plague of mental health struggles, for many workers it can also have the effect of naturalising some of the dire employment conditions. People are having to work longer hours, some taking multiple jobs for less and less money. I spoke to a constituent at the surgery in Caerau on Monday who is working three jobs at the moment and yet still only had £3 to her name on Monday.

Luke, you need to conclude now please.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'll conclude by saying that we must endeavour to carry out the work that denaturalises this. The reality is that this isn't normal and people shouldn't have to struggle to afford the basics.

Sarah Murphy AS: Again, I want to start by echoing what Paul and Luke have said. Thank you to my colleagues, the Senedd team, the Chair, and everyone who engaged with our Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee in putting this timely and important report together. This crisis continues to impact many in our communities. For some, it might be about being extra careful with budgets, but for others it is about whether they will be able to put food on the table for them or their children tomorrow.
The TUC says that one in seven people are skipping meals already or going without food. Trussell Trust figures show that one in five referrals to its centres are from households where someone works. This is impacting people who should have the security of their wages, but some working people are not able to cover the basic costs of living, let alone getting to their job. Mortgage bills are at their highest since 2008 as a result of the fallout from the mini-budget, food prices have rocketed, some by over 60 per cent, and the Office for Budget Responsibility has said that 2023 will see the biggest fall in living standards in the UK since records began.
But, there are profits being made for a small number of people in our society. UK energy producers could make excess profits of £170 billion over the next two years. BP made profits of £7 billion in the third quarter of 2022; Shell has made record global profits of nearly £26 billion for the first three quarters of 2022, but paid nothing into the UK's energy windfall tax. At the very same time, the Government in Westminster, despite our pleas for it not to, made changes to universal credit that left three quarters of households worse off than they were the year before. The Lloyds Bank Foundation report stated explicitly that these changes were pushing people into poverty and debt.
The Welsh Government has said that it's doing everything it can to target people needing the most support, so I am pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted, or accepted in principle, all of the recommendations in our report. The Welsh Government has already acted on several of these recommendations and provided interventions through this bleak economic period. This includes the winter fuel support scheme, which has been extended to support more than 400,000 low-income homes; the one-off £150 payment for those in council tax bands A to D; and the council tax reduction scheme. Recommendation 5 of the report stresses the need to evaluate the support and learn lessons from the cost-of-living crisis. I'm pleased that this is already taking place within Welsh Government, and this process led to the extension of the winter fuel support, after it was learned from the stakeholders that some households needing that support were not originally eligible.
Recommendation 6 also highlights the need to build on the success of the 'Claim what's yours' campaign, with the Welsh Government recognising that there are many people who are entitled to support but are not claiming it, simply because they don't know that it's even available to them. We are in a situation now where people cannot afford to go without the support that they are entitled to, so I am glad to see that the Welsh Government has agreed to continue this work.
The reality is that the consequences of economic insecurity intersect with other aspects in people's lives. We know that health disparities, such as in mental health, are being affected by the cost-of-living crisis. That is why I'm particularly pleased that we got to cover this during the investigation by the committee and that this was reflected in recommendation 17. In my own community, many support groups across Bridgend are being impacted by the influx of people needing support for their mental health as they deal with the pressures of the crisis. The Welsh Government said it's working with its social partners, including the trade unions, to ensure that workers are not disadvantaged if suffering with their mental health. I would ask that officials in Welsh Government and local authorities engage and consult with support groups on the ground in our communities to ensure that they are provided with the tools to support people during this hardship. They are a lifeline for so many people on the edge.
Though there are many recommendations to draw upon in this debate, I do want to mention one last one, 22, on the delivery of the warm hubs, or warm banks, in our communities for people to drop in and keep warm instead of using energy in their own households, as well as going somewhere for support and camaraderie. The number of people in my community who have reached out to me for more information on this was overwhelming. It is a reminder of that community spirit we saw during the pandemic, looking out for one another in a time of need. I am pleased that the First Minister has confirmed initial funding of £1 million to support organisations and local authorities to provide the warm banks this winter, but it is important again that we think about how we reach out to people who need to access this support.
I recently met with the broadband company Ogi, and discussed with them the practicalities of providing Wi-Fi at the warm hubs. With people having to cut down on budgets, for the most vulnerable, their broadband could be the bill that goes. They'll probably prioritise, of course, eating and keeping the heating on over that. Wi-Fi at the warm hubs could ensure that people could access their benefits online, look up local services, do their food shopping, but also attract families and parents who may not typically consider using them. So, I'd ask that the Welsh Government consider this and see how they can provide support. Again, thank you to all my colleagues on the committee. Thank you, Minister.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to all those who contributed towards the formation of this committee's report. As we've heard already this afternoon, this is an issue of huge pertinence to families and households right across Wales. But as this report rightly notes, the escalation in the cost of living is being felt even more acutely in Wales's rural communities, such as those in my own constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire.
Rural Wales has always faced connectivity challenges, be that physically with transport, or technologically with broadband and communications infrastructure. If you combine this with older, colder and off-grid housing stock, then these pre-existing issues compound the escalating stress and damage to the cost of living. This is why I was pleased to note recommendation 20 of this report,
'Welsh Government must ensure its plans to support off-grid households through this winter are robust. This should include either extending the ability for off-grid households to access support via the Discretionary Assistance Fund or the Fuel Voucher scheme.'
It seeks to alleviate this situation, and I am pleased to learn that this recommendation has been accepted in full by the Welsh Government. That being said, it is important that we see the cost of living as an evolving situation and there could come a time when—arguably now—the existing financial support package does not go far enough. This is then exacerbated when we take into consideration the influence of connectivity and housing-stock issues, which then further escalates the crisis we have identified. And so when we talk about rural communities in this context, we are recognising that individuals are paying a higher cost to live in rural Wales, where salaries don't reflect this.
There's a higher cost to heat your home because you live in a 150-year-old cottage that isn't afforded the modern-day luxuries of thermal insulation, a higher cost to travel because you live 45 minutes away from your nearest supermarket, 55 minutes away from a hospital, or an hour and a half away from your nearest city. So, there's less efficient heating of your home and you're filling up your car with fuel more often, and pay a surcharge for the distance that your goods and services have travelled. This is the reality of the cost of rural living, and as far as I and my constituents are concerned, this is not a factor that is recognised enough.
Paragraph 76 of this report notes the rural affairs Minister's comments on this situation. She told members of the committee that
'For the off-grid properties, we'—
being the Welsh Government—
'are looking at what further we can do to support.'
I should note that these comments were made in June, and yet, several months on, our rural communities are still left in the same situation. So, given the opportunity that this report has presented, I would like to ask the Welsh Government whether they have any intention of extending support to further assist our communities.
In conclusion, this report has shone an important spotlight on a matter that is ever evolving. Crucially, the current cost of living is an issue that is going to be with us for the foreseeable future, so in every decision on financial support that the Welsh Government makes, I would urge you to take into consideration the rural cost premium to ensure that communities aren't being short-changed because of their postcode.
I'd like to end by echoing the words of my fellow committee member Luke in thanking our Chair, Paul Davies, for his continued excellent chairmanship of this committee, our committee clerking team, and all of those who contributed by oral or written evidence to this report. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Sioned Williams MS: As Plaid Cymru spokesperson on social justice and equalities, I welcome the recommendations of this important report. As Paul Davies mentioned, many of these recommendations echo and underline many of those that have been made by a number of reports by the Equality and Social Justice Committee into issues related to poverty and the cost-of-living crisis, as well as calls made by many anti-poverty organisations and campaigners.
The findings of this report as regards the scale of the cost-of-living crisis are stark in the context of today's inflation figures and the findings of the children's commissioner's survey released today, which found that 45 per cent of children said they worry about having enough to eat. They evidence an unprecedented crisis. We have perhaps started to become too familiar with these shocking, shameful statistics that reveal how vulnerable our citizens are to economic shocks, how our already scandalous levels of poverty have meant that too many people have been on a dangerous precipice for too long, their precarious financial situation fragile and flimsy in the face of the economic storm that is hitting them so hard. But the headlines, so bold and alarming in this report, bear repeating. Wales this summer had the highest percentage of households in serious financial difficulty of any of the devolved nations and English regions—a quarter of people cutting back on utilities, a third cutting back on food, higher numbers borrowing and getting into debt, and an unprecedented demand for crisis support. All this is having a disproportionate effect on women, exacerbated by intersectional impacts for disabled women and women from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds.
The report also bears out warnings about the grim and worsening situation facing Welsh households issued in the Equalities and Social Justice Committee's first report of this sixth Senedd on debt and the pandemic, and our inquiry into the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme, during which we took a lot of evidence on fuel poverty. The report before us today tells us that every 40 seconds, a Welsh bill payer is making a call to Citizens Advice about their fuel bill. Delivery, low take-up and an awareness of support schemes are again here recognised as a challenge and a concern. Again and again, we see in report after report, both from Senedd committees and from research of policy and third sector organisations, that there is a lack of disaggregated data on the impacts of rising living costs on particular groups on indicators such as poverty, deprivation and debt.
Recommendations 1 to 13 all speak to the need for better targeting, co-ordination and delivery of the cost-of-living support that is available. It's something that Plaid Cymru have consistently advocated for. We need to make sure that every pound of Welsh support is going to the right place at the right time, and we need to know how much support is needed and where. Recommendations 5 and 6 again reiterate calls made many times around the winter fuel support scheme. We must see that the support on offer from Welsh Government is being evaluated appropriately and quickly so that subsequent schemes are made even more efficient in achieving their purpose.
Recommendation 8 calls for the Welsh Government to bring together means-tested support schemes for low-income households through a Welsh benefits system, and there's also a mention of a statutory element to local authority delivery of support payments in recommendation 10. Having brought a debate on a legislative proposal to the Senedd a couple of weeks ago on this very issue, a proposal that was passed by the Senedd, I was very pleased to see that this is again being endorsed with cross-party agreement. The recent report from Audit Wales says that, because there isn't a streamlined, simpler system for claiming payments, the help on offer isn't as effective as it could be, with people having to complete multiple applications for different payments that often ask for the same information.
That report has also shown that people in all parts of Wales are experiencing poverty and the number is growing. We know that the news from Westminster tomorrow won't be good for either those one in eight households in Wales who are struggling to afford everyday items, or the households on benefits who are struggling the most. Welsh Government has had to step in more and more with different support payments as Westminster has failed to protect those in Wales who need the support the most. There are children going hungry today. There are disabled and elderly people who can't keep their homes warm. There are families who are facing homelessness. They can't depend on those Tories in Westminster who would impose more devastating austerity policies upon them, and neither can they wait for a change of Government in Westminster. They elected a Government in Cardiff to serve them, and serve them they should by acting quickly on these important recommendations. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone AC: 'The shocking reality is that this winter, we are likely to see charities being forced to stop feeding the hungry so they can help the starving, cut back on support to the poorly housed so they can focus on the fast-rising numbers of homeless, and give up on helping the down-at-heel because their priority has to be the destitute.'
These are not my words, but those of Dr Rowan Williams and Gordon Brown in their foreward to the Theos report, which is a religious think tank that particularly focuses on the work of churches in endeavouring to relieve this level of concern and pain that our communities are going through.It echoes the latest NUS survey, which came out today, on the impact of the rising cost of living on students in Wales, because, obviously, they are not eligible for any of these benefits. Nine out of 10 of those who took part in this survey said that their mental health was being impacted by financial worries, and a quarter reported this to be significant, as well as increasing numbers cutting down on essentials, including, for example, period products, as well as not putting the heating on as much in their homes and eating less. I think, more concerning for me is that they are returning to their families, or savings, for help, but, increasingly, the cost-of-living crisis is affecting their families as well. So, there is nowhere for these people to turn to.
All those who have spoken so far have agreed that the situation is extremely serious, and we'll find out tomorrow whether public services will have even less resource to cope with, to get us through this terrible winter. So, we have to think of other ways in which we can endeavour to mitigate the pain that our communities are going through.
I was pleased to host the launch of the Enforcement Conduct Board in the Pierhead today. I'm very grateful to those Members who attended, including the Minister for Social Justice, who took the time to hear what Catherine Brown, the chair, had to say, and to agree to work with her. Catherine Brown has a long and distinguished career as a civil servant, so, as chair of this non-statutory body for Wales and England, she will bring a lot of experience of negotiating with public bodies and the enforcement of regulations. It is a non-statutory body, set up by the civil enforcement industry, otherwise known as bailiffs, and supported by several leading debt advice charities, including Money Advice Trust, Christians Against Poverty and StepChange.
One of the expert debt advisers present today told me what happened after she moved into a new home that had previously been occupied by someone who appeared to have accumulated a large number of debts. She experienced a series of visits from bailiffs, most of whom were polite and correct in the way they conducted their business. But one in particular, acting on behalf of a local authority, had aggressive behaviour and reflected some of the testimonials that we heard in our Equality and Social Justice Committee inquiry into debt in the pandemic. This, obviously, is extremely worrying, and we need to ensure that all local authorities, when they're enforcing, for example, council tax debt, are not employing people who are cowboys in the industry and not adhering to the law. It is a sad fact that one of the growth areas in the economy in this crisis is debt collection agencies, and many of those trade in people's misery by buying up court enforcement orders in order to endeavour to make money from them. This is a very worrying situation, because once you get involved with debt collectors you're then, obviously, increasing the amount of debt that you owe, and sometimes the charges they are making are seriously unreasonable.
I just wanted to pick up on a point that Paul Davies made, which is around form filling and the difficulties that a lot of people have in doing that. I recall often the words of Lynne Neagle saying that the Healthy Start vouchers are not going to a large number of the people who are entitled to them. In an energy summit I organised in my constituency, it was very concerning to hear that health visitors report that trying to fill in the form to get the Healthy Start vouchers is so time consuming that they simply don't have the time to complete the application on behalf of these low-income women on benefits who desperately need that extra £8.25 in the first year of a child's life, and £4.25 per child up to four years. So, I think we have to look at ways in which we can help make this situation easier. I hope that we can speak to the UK Government about making this Healthy Start easier to get hold of.
I was particularly interested in the response of the Government to your report that said that the Welsh Government set up a task and finish group to look at a delivery model that will enable local authority data sources to be used to target pension credit information to households who may be missing out—

Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —and I think this is the model that we could be using for all manner of entitlements that people are getting.

Carolyn Thomas AS: The cost-of-living crisis is 12 years in the making, exacerbated by Brexit, the war in Ukraine and the Tory UK Government's policies, cutting public service funding, pushing productivity to an unrealistic limit and slashing social security payments. I would like to welcome recommendations 8 and 9 of this report. Having to apply for benefits and grants is confusing and messy. Residents hear snippets of information on the news, perhaps in relation to a UK Government announcement—but it's not available yet, and we are not sure how it's going to be delivered.
The Welsh Government fills in the gaps being left by UK Government funding initiatives to make sure that people are not left behind. But councils are facing huge funding gaps, and they are expected to be the delivery body, and they won't be able to step in. A one-stop portal or grant assessor would be a good idea, where the latest information can be found. But we must make sure that every contact counts.The Wellbeing Hub in Wrexham said that, when people come for long COVID consultations, they are asking them if they are okay, and if they need help with anything else, such as accessing grants. In Flintshire, there is a single point of contact number for OT grants, district nurses, making it easier to access support. So, I think every opportunity, we must make the most of it now.
Productivity and efficiencies have been pushed to the limit over the last 15 to 20 years. Shift patterns are long, and they are not family friendly; they don't fit in with childcare. This increased use of zero-hours contracts or part-time contracts with enforced overtime isn’t very good for families. Royal Mail workers’ rounds were increased last year to 13 miles as an average per day. Yet, the Royal Mail wants to cut sickness, which, you know, a worker walking 13 miles a day is going to have more health issues, but they want to cut sickness pay and increase the use of agency workers.
I’m glad that this report recognises the effect that the current labour market is having on workers, and I’m pleased to see that the Welsh Government has renewed its commitment to supporting working people through social partnership. But the problem is not just in the private sector; public service funding for councils and health has been cut, and wages have stagnated. Employees are stretched and leaving the sector. They are exhausted.If the UK Government reversed public sector cuts and invested in the wider care sector, it would create many more jobs than investment in construction. It employs more women, is green and supports people and families right across our communities. It would help invest in our communities as well, as they would just spend locally. Investing in care would be a good economic stimulus during the cost-of-living crisis, and it would also take the pressure off the NHS.
Investment in childcare would also help to address the cost-of-living crisis and support 46 per cent of single parents who experience poverty—86 per cent of whom are women. Now is not the time to cut public service spending, when it’s needed more than ever to help people in crisis. We heard this at the Local Government and Housing Committee today. Homelessness is at crisis point.
I know that bus subsidies are back on the table, as they are looking at austerity too and more cuts, and dealing with the in-year funding gap. Redundancies are on the table. The closure of leisure facilities, swimming baths and, most importantly of all, the support services that we need councils to deliver—all this help and this aid—are on the table as well. So, we need to invest in public service funding and public spending now in order to support families through this cost-of-living crisis, and not cut them further. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start by thanking the committee again for their work in preparing this report, which has led to the debate. We are all very well aware of the cost-of-living crisis. It is being fuelled by a range of factors. But of course, the headline inflation rate today is partly driven by energy, but of course, as I mentioned earlier, the headline rate of food inflation far outstrips the headline rate of 11.1 per cent, with more than 16 per cent in the inflation of food.
The undeniable truth is that choices made by successive UK Conservative Governments have contributed to where we are: the first period of austerity, the reductions in benefits—they've helped to create conditions that have added to very real pressures on household budgets, even before the Truss-Kwarteng regime and its brief-lived but disastrous impact on public finance, and the very real effect that that has had for families. As Sarah Murphy noted, the Office for Budget Responsibility assessment is that the next financial year will see the biggest fall in living standards across the UK since records began.

Vaughan Gething AC: And since this report was published, unfortunately the situation has worsened. Many Members have highlighted the appalling reality for far too many families, and just to return to one of the points Jenny Rathbone made, for those people that are helping, there will be real challenges, and I think it is true that help for the hungry will be stopped to be better able to help the starving. That will be the truth in far too many of our communities.
And the instability in the UK Government has undeniably led to more uncertainty over the interventions to support families and businesses, in Wales and across the UK. The previous mini-budget that led to the collapse of the pound, the chaos in financial markets, had real consequences, not just the near-collapse of UK pension funds and the intervention of the Bank of England—it led to soaring borrowing costs and further pressure on inflation and interest rates, and that hits businesses, families, and of course all of those people with a mortgage, including the many thousands of people who every month come off a fixed price deal and go onto a standard rate that will now be much more than they expected.
Now, some help was made available. The £2,500 energy price cap—that’s the average energy price, of course; we know that it wasn’t a hard cap—that was for two years, and then backtracked to have a six-month period of time. But, even with that support, the average household energy bill has almost doubled compared to April 2021. And the energy bill relief scheme should relieve some of the pressures on businesses, but the UK Government really do need to pass the necessary legislation swiftly, to make sure payments get into the accounts of businesses so they don’t go under before the help is provided, and that they’re passed on to non-domestic customers, and that’s not just businesses, of course; lots of our key public services, including schools, are in that category, and really do need the help that has been signalled.
Now, whilst I do welcome the support that has been signalled, it may not be sufficient for some of our small and medium-sized businesses who are still facing up to sixfold increases in energy costs. A high proportion of those businesses were struggling with the pace of the recovery post pandemic. The Bank of England predicts a historic drop of 14 per cent in UK GDP this year, as well of course as a long-lasting recession that we may already be into.
I have responded formally to the recommendations, and, as has been noted, the Government agrees with the great majority of them, either in full or in principle. The Government has already established a Cabinet sub-committee specifically to discuss and address the support that we are able to provide, and we’re doing that with our partners in the third sector, in local government, and indeed a range of others. The recommendations made are part of the work that we’re taking forward, and that includes the work on warm hubs that Sarah Murphy highlighted. And we’re concerned about the need to do this. It’s extraordinary that, in a country like ours, we’re having to consider how to do it, but to do it in a way where there isn’t stigma around the provision but it does provide friendship and companionship. I certainly do recognise the point that Sarah Murphy made about making sure there’s decent Wi-Fi access—a good reason for people to go there. A range of the hubs already have that, but we will of course look, and it’s a good thing that the social justice Minister is here, at how we can ensure that those hubs do have decent Wi-Fi access.
We’re working with analysts across Government, as indeed has been mentioned, on the collection, analysis and publication of data on the cost-of-living realities, and ensuring that helps to shape Government interventions. The chief statistician will shortly provide information on how to access cost-of-living data. We’ll carry on working closely with the Office for National Statistics and Data Cymru on other user-friendly ways to access that data. The development bank continues to support Welsh businesses. We’ve also committed to invest more than £20 million a year into the Business Wales service from April 2023 to March 2025. That demonstrates our commitment to entrepreneurs, micro and SME businesses, to help provide them with the information, support and guidance they need to survive the very real challenges that we face.
We also continue to invest in our skills programme to support employers. We’ll continue with a budget of £30 million that has been allocated towards improving domestic energy efficiency in low-income households, including off-grid properties, through a range of Welsh Government programmes. And in the next financial year, we want to continue to support SMEs, and we'll continue to look at what will be available to us on non-domestic rates, but, of course, we'll have to wait to see what happens tomorrow to understand what that does to the reality of Welsh Government resources. We will do everything that we can to support people through this cost-of-living crisis in targeting help and support, but we'll have to be honest about the range of measures that are available to us, as we do, I'm afraid, expect there to be a further squeeze on the financial capability of this Government following tomorrow's statement, and potentially in the years ahead.
Many businesses in Wales are supporting their customers, and, indeed, their staff. Iceland, for example, have provided a range of services to assist their customers, including 10 per cent discounts on a Tuesday for people aged over 60, and interest-free loans for some of their customers. And Valero, an example of a different employer in Pembrokeshire, well, they're also providing extra support for Pembrokeshire foodbanks and looking at a hygiene drive to help provide goods to families and children.
As I mentioned at the start, a lot has happened since this report was published: different Prime Ministers—plural—and now we're on to our fourth Chancellor this year. The uncertainty and the lack of clarity means we don't really know what our budget position will be next year, and it affects our ability to plan for the future, as indeed it does for families, public services and businesses. We'll continue to press the UK Government to use all the levers as its disposal, including a meaningful windfall tax on energy companies, who themselves say that they should pay more to support people through the cost-of-living crisis.
We've been clear about our priorities to support people and businesses. The mini-budget 2, tomorrow, will make a huge difference. It could help, but it could well make matters even worse. The next few days will be difficult, but the next year, I'm afraid, could be even more difficult for far too many citizens and businesses in Wales and across the UK.

I call on Paul Davies to reply to the debate.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank Members for contributing to this afternoon's debate? We've heard strong views from Members today on the challenges faced by workers, businesses and communities across Wales. As the Minister has rightly said, more has happened since we published our report in July than we could ever have imagined, but we all agree that we want to support our constituents through these very difficult times.
Now, Members have spoken about the lack of evidence base on how cost-of-living pressures are affecting different communities across Wales, and the need for the Welsh Government to ensure regular Wales-level data is available. We must have a more accurate picture of the impact of the cost of living on households, so that we can better understand the impact of cost-of-living pressures on different socioeconomic groups.
Of course, Members have eloquently highlighted the impact of the rising cost of living on households. We know that people are having to tighten their belts and make difficult choices, and that’s why the Welsh Government must work hard to ensure that those who are struggling are aware of the support on offer. Members have also referred to the pressures on the workforce, and we know that certain economic sectors are under more pressure than others, with an increased risk of cost-of-living pressures on employers being passed onto employees. And the Member for Bridgend, and Sioned Williams, the Member for South Wales West, have reminded us that many people and families are already facing huge challenges on a day-to-day basis. I'm also grateful to the Member for Cardiff Central for highlighting the debt some are already facing in struggling with day-to-day bills.
Now, the Minister was absolutely right to say that the impact of energy costs on businesses, and, indeed, on public services, is just as eye-watering and just as consequential as those for consumers. Like the Member for North Wales, Carolyn Thomas, the committee welcomes efforts to lift more Welsh workers onto a real living wage and to support economic sectors and workers who are particularly vulnerable to the impact of escalating living costs, and I want to assure Members that we will continue to scrutinise this area further.
I believe we have put forward some constructive suggestions to fill what we identified as the gaps in support. We know that the pressures have increased and we have to see what tomorrow’s autumn statement brings. In the meantime, I can confirm that this committee already has plans for future scrutiny in this area. In the next few weeks, we will be holding a one-day inquiry called ‘Cost of Living 2’, where we will be listening to Welsh business representatives about what has changed for them since July and how they are coping with the increased costs of doing business. And also, very importantly, we will look at the impact of cost-of-living pressures on skills and in-work training for those trying to enter the job market or reskill. This work will include looking at the Welsh Government's employability plans, in particular the young person's guarantee and how cost-of-living pressures are impacting on those recovery efforts.
We are also intending to undertake some work on the escalating cost of doing business. Members such as Luke Fletcher, the Member for South Wales West, have also raised the impact of these pressures on businesses, many of whom still haven't fully recovered from the pandemic. And for that reason, it's more important that the Welsh Government uses the levers it has to help our businesses through business rates relief, grant support and by establishing an emergency support funding programme, using similar mechanisms to the COVID support programmes, to help the businesses mostly acutely affected through the peak of the cost-of-living pressures.
Now, Members such as the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire have also raised the rural premium, and we know that the rising cost of living is being more acutely felt by those living in rural communities, both in terms of accessing services and in relation to energy costs, and that is why we've called for the Welsh Government to ensure its plans to support off-grid households through this winter are robust, and we've also called for more research to be done on the rural premium and the impact that the cost of living is having on our rural communities.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the committee continues to give a high priority to examining these matters, given that they are so important for the Welsh economy. We will also be welcoming the Minister for Economy to meet with us on 7 December, where I'm sure cost-of-living pressures will feature on that agenda. And so, in closing, can I thank those who contributed to the debate this afternoon? We look forward to receiving further updates from the Welsh Government on their work in this area and in relation to the implementation of our report recommendations. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I haven't heard any objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Changing Places Toilets

The next item is the first Welsh Conservatives debate, on Changing Places toilets, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM8126 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
Calls on the Welsh Government to provide a suitable funding mechanism and clear guidance to local authorities to ensure there is equitable provision of Changing Places toilets in every county in Wales.

Motion moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Well, key to the delivery of the Equality Act 2010 is the availability of Changing Places toilets, which go beyond the provision of standard accessible toilets and are designed so that everyone, regardless of their access needs or impairments or reliance on the assistance of carers or specialist equipment, can use a toilet facility with dignity and hygienically. They're larger accessible toilets with equipment such as hoists, curtains, adult-sized changing benches and space for carers. Speaking here in 2019 on the Changing Places campaign, I stated that, although this was launched in 2006, I had just attended a Changing Places steering group meeting, focused on bringing Changing Places into the north-east Wales counties, hopefully starting with the town of Mold, where a campaign for a Changing Places toilet in the Daniel Owen Centre still continues today. It was chaired by Kim Edwards, who herself has Friedreich's ataxia. She said that the lack of current facilities means that disabled people don't go out. Providing a proper changing place provides all the space and equipment needed to avoid people being changed on an unhygienic floor, not changed at all, or even not going out into the community in the first place. Her words. It was then already 16 years since I'd first heard this raised in this place, and yet people like Kim are still having to fight these campaigns 19 years later.
Questioning the First Minister here last month, I stated that
'TCC, Trefnu Cymunedol Cymru—Together Creating Communities, a group of dedicated community leaders from organisations across Flintshire, Wrexham and Denbighshire, have joined together to take action on the issue of Changing Places toilets. They say that, despite assurances regarding their provision over successive Welsh Governments, going back two decades, including by some who are still Ministers in this Welsh Government, there are still only around 50 Changing Places toilets in the whole of Wales.'
When I then asked the First Minister
'when will the Welsh Government enable people in Wales who are not able to use standard accessible toilets to have their basic human needs and equality rights met, to enjoy a day out without the stress of worrying about accessing toilet facilities and thereby to increase their independence and overall health and well-being?'
he replied that
'The responsibilities in this area lie with local authorities.'
Welsh Government officials, he said,
'are tracking the money that has been made available to local authorities'.
However, as the Welsh Government confirmed to me in a written answer, they do not have a specific fund for the delivery of Changing Places toilets. Further, TCC state that the Welsh Government guidance issued to local authorities in Wales is not being followed consistently, and that the result to date has been disappointing.
In contrast, the UK Government has launched a Changing Places toilet programme, with a dedicated £30 million fund for local authorities in every part of England to help increase the number of Changing Places toilets there. Hence, our motion calls on the Welsh Government to provide a suitable funding mechanism and clear guidance to local authorities to ensure there is equitable provision of Changing Places toilets in every county in Wales. TCC state, if, for example, the Welsh Government could commit to at least match funding one Changing Places toilet per county, a national group purchase order could be secured at a rough cost of only £275,000—£25,000 each; equivalent to just over £1 per disabled person in the country.
The social model of disability says that people are disabled by barriers in society, not by their impairment, and a lack of basic facilities such as these are leaving people disabled, trapped, isolated and dependent on others. I've even heard of parents of disabled children being issued changing mats by their occupational therapists to be used on the floor in a public accessible toilet. Although Crohn's & Colitis UK rightly state that there needs to be better awareness of invisible disabilities, so that everyone can understand why someone with Crohn's or colitis needs to use the toilet urgently, standard accessible toilets do not meet the needs of all disabled people.
Changing Places facilities also have an economic benefit: attracting disabled people and their families to use shops, tourist attractions and hospitality venues. Disabled families could contribute a huge amount to the economy, when the UK purple pound, the spending power of households with disabled people in them, is worth £274 billion.
The lack of Changing Places is a social justice issue, a public health issue, a local government issue, a building regulations issue, and, above all, a disability rights issue. I therefore call on Members to support, and the Welsh Government to act, on our motion today.

Sioned Williams MS: I’m pleased to have an opportunity to speak in this debate as Plaid Cymru spokesperson on social justice and equalities and as chair of the cross-party group on learning disabilities. Plaid Cymru is fully supportive of measures to improve all kinds of public accessibility for disabled people and those with specific needs, and we are pleased to see this proposal to ensure that Changing Places toilets are available across Wales being tabled, and we are pleased to support the proposal.
Being able to access toilet facilities when needed is fundamental to an individual’s dignity and health. But, being able to access such a toilet is often difficult for disabled people, and if you have complex or multiple disabilities, being able to access a toilet that meets your needs is even more of a challenge.
As the motion suggests, although these appropriate and vital facilities for individuals who require personal support to use the toilet or to change pads are available in some places now, the process of installing facilities of this kind in public places in Wales has been too slow and inconsistent, particularly in rural areas. For example, there is only one registered Changing Places toilet in Ceredigion and Powys—a situation that I am sure that all Members will agree is unacceptable. This means that there is no equality of access to appropriate facilities for all of the citizens of Wales, regardless of their location or physical ability.
It was Mencap Cymru that led the Changing Places campaign in Wales back in 2008. They have spoken about the difference that being able to access Changing Places toilets can make to people with disabilities and their families, in terms of being able to enjoy time out of their homes, be it in public places such as theatres, cinemas or shopping centres, or opportunities to enjoy parks, rural areas, areas of natural beauty or tourist attractions. Without these facilities, these opportunities that should be available to everyone are only available to the few. Mencap says that the funding allocated to install Changing Places toilets in Oakwood, St Fagans, Llangollen, Museum Wales in Cardiff, Pili Palas and Corris visitor centre has been transformational in ensuring that disabled people and tourists can enjoy some of Wales's finest attractions. But there is a pressing need for more such facilities to expand the kinds of experiences and leisure opportunities available to people in all parts of Wales.
These facilities are vital and, as Mark Ishwerood said, they boost the tourism industry. The managers of these attractions say that they receive a number of calls from people who wish to check whether they have a Changing Places toilet before they visit. And if we are to be an equal nation, if we want to lead the way in terms of inclusive tourism, then the provision of these kinds of facilities is central to that laudable aim that we should all support. The visitor levy could support this kind of innovative and inclusive development.
It's hard to believe that any planning application for new buildings can fail to include a Changing Places toilet. How can we justify not providing a toilet for everyone, regardless of their needs and regardless of where they live? If we are agreed on this, then I encourage everyone to support this motion.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'd like to pay tribute to Jan Thomas, chief executive of the Flintshire Disability Forum, and TCC, Together Creating Communities, for campaigning for more Changing Places facilities across north-east Wales. They lobbied me when I was a Flintshire county councillor and, since then, I have questioned if a Changing Places toilet can be incorporated in a new public building or during the redesigning of an existing one.
On most occasions, there have been issues with adequate space, especially in existing buildings, and more so if they have some listed status. Budget isn't usually the biggest constraint. The Changing Places facilities are specially adapted, accessible toilets that have a hoist, an adult-sized changing bed and grab rails. There needs to be plenty of room for manoeuvring around. The main importance, I believe, is ensuring that consideration is given right at the design stage, when there is a blank canvas, and it isn't just an add on.
On Friday, I visited a stand showing plans for the football museum in Wrexham, where the existing listed museum building will be reconfigured internally, and I asked if they could incorporate a Changing Places toilet there. But they responded that they were restricted by space and layout, as the building was listed and they're already in lengthy conversations with Cadw regarding design. But they do want to try and incorporate one; it just might not be the right size, and be slightly reduced, but they are working on it.
After that I visited the new well-being hub in Wrexham, and it's been totally refurbished, thanks to Welsh Government funding in collaboration with the health board and Wrexham council, and I was so pleased to see two Changing Places toilets incorporated—one adult and one child—which also had showers and a big changing unit. It also had kitchen units that moved up and down, it had a sensory room, and children's early years indoor and outdoor play areas, which is fantastic, and a consulting room for people with long COVID. I just thought they'd thought of everything, right at the early planning stages, which is so important.
Wrexham also have another two Changing Places toilets in various locations, and Broughton Shopping Park are going to incorporate one, along with the John Summers building in Flintshire. Jan Thomas and TCC said, 'We know from the people we work with and support that the biggest concern about going out into the community is the lack of accessible toilet facilities.' And Changing Places toilets enable all disabled people to have the same experiences as the non-disabled. It is a basic human right. Thank you.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank my colleague, the Member for North Wales, for proposing this debate and for all of his hard work in promoting the rights of disabled people? It is clear that we need to do more to create a fully inclusive society. Far too many barriers exist that prevent disabled people from being able to fully participate in everyday activities. As we've already heard, there are only 50 Changing Places toilets in the whole of Wales. This compounds the fact that the availability of public toilets has generally reduced over the past few years, whilst those that do exist are not fully accessible. So, it's not that easy to find a toilet as it is, but for a person who's disabled and who needs to use a toilet, it makes it extraordinarily difficult to find a facility that meets their needs.
Now, with my former local authority hat on, it is difficult for a council to balance all of the priorities that they have: you have limited budgets and some considerable pressures to meet, which can mean that things like toilet facilities sadly end up not at the front of the queue for funding. And, yes, whilst local authorities are required to produce and publicise a local toilet strategy, we know that not all local authorities reference the need for Changing Places in their strategy. In our Monmouthshire 2019 toilet strategy, we did make reference to the availability of a changing place, available in a local community centre. We also ensured that the locations of toilets and their facilities were made available via a mapping app that could be accessed on a mobile phone. But I recognise that we should have done a lot more. So, there does need to be dedicated financial support for public bodies, to ensure that they can provide suitable changing place facilities, as well as strengthened guidance so that public bodies fully consider accessibility when producing a toilet strategy and designing public spaces. We might think making toilets more accessible is a small step, but it can have a hugely beneficial impact on disabled people and open up more opportunities to them.
And quickly touching on the purple pound—that is, the spending power of disabled households. Statistics from the Purple charity do show that, for the UK as a whole, businesses lose around £2 billion a month by not meeting the needs of disabled people. Around 75 per cent of disabled people have walked away from a business before, because of poor accessibility. So, providing these facilities, we can actually promote economic benefits as well as the social benefits.
So, I hope, Deputy Presiding Officer, that the Welsh Government will approach this debate in a positive way, and that as a Senedd we can explore ways to ensure that we meet the needs of disabled people from across Wales. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to give an update on the steps that the Welsh Government is taking to help to ensure that Changing Places toilets are available the length and breadth of Wales.

Jane Hutt AC: And really approaching this in a very positive way in terms of the commitment that the Welsh Government has, quite clearly committed to promoting full community participation and active citizenship for all the people of Wales, and we fully understand the crucial part that Changing Places toilets can play in achieving this goal for many disabled people. While standard accessible toilets meet the needs of most disabled people, many disabled people require the extra provision facilitated by Changing Places toilets, and we're committed to ensuring they're provided throughout Wales. Thank you to all Members who've contributed this afternoon with good examples of what is already happening.
In September 2019, we published our framework, 'Action on Disability: The Right to Independent Living', and that set out a wide range of measures to tackle some of the key barriers that disabled people face with impairments. This framework was co-produced with disabled people, and it includes specific action around the provision of Changing Places toilets.
In 2017, the Welsh Government introduced a requirement for each local authority in Wales to produce a local toilet strategy. When developing their strategies, local authorities were required to undertake an assessment of need, including consideration of the need for Changing Places toilets. The strategies must then set out how local authorities intend to best meet the identified needs, and this work must take place with the full involvement of their residents and other delivery partners, including disabled people, and we heard examples of campaigners working with local authorities and accessing funding, including Welsh Government funding.
In addition to these toilet strategy requirements, in February 2021 there was a draft consultation document issued, which introduced a range of proposed changes to building regulation, so they will include provision for Changing Places toilets. These proposed regulations would apply to new developments and those undergoing a material change of use, with the aim of increasing the provision of Changing Places toilets in publicly accessible buildings of a certain size. And the results of this consultation exercise are due to be published imminently.
The Welsh Government provides support to local authorities, as part, of course, of their annual revenue settlement, which ensures that they have flexibility to make appropriate local spending decisions. Authorities should be takingdecisions on services and their budgets in the context of the breadth of their responsibilities, including those under Part 8 of the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017. We recognise that the impact of inflation means that authorities are having difficult choices and budgets are under pressure, but of course, the revenue settlement for this financial year provided for an increase of 9.4 per cent, with no authority receiving an increase lower than 8.4 per cent.
But it's quite clear, and I can share this with you today, that Welsh Government has long been committed to promoting and advancing the rights of disabled people in Wales, and fully recognises that disabled people are marginalised in almost all areas of life. Key to achieving the liberation of disabled people is the removal of all physical, attitudinal and economic barriers that disabled people face with impairments. We aim to achieve this liberation through working within an embedded common understanding of the social model—Mark Isherwood knows our commitment to that—human rights and the importance of working within a co-production framework. We are committed to embedding the social model of disability in everything we do, and we believe that understanding and enacting the socioeconomic model is essential to removing the disabling barriers that blight the lives of disabled people.
We are in the process of delivering training across Welsh Government and a number of key stakeholder bodies. The real opportunity lies with the disability rights taskforce, which the First Minister established in 2021, bringing together people with lived experience and expertise, Welsh Government policy leads and representative organisations to address disability with the aim of levering long-lasting changes. I'm pleased to report that the taskforce will soon be examining all our work regarding accessible toilets. All the work of the taskforce is being delivered in the spirit of co-production and is already achieving change. So, with all of these initiatives, the opportunities, the regulations, consultation, the disability rights taskforce, with that commitment to addressing this issue in terms of Changing Places, we will be supporting this motion.

I call on Sam Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I say what a pleasure it is to close today's Welsh Conservatives debate on Changing Places toilets? I'd like to thank all Members who have taken part and, in particular, for the cross-party support that the motion has received across the Chamber today. In closing this debate, I'd like to focus on perhaps three points that I think have been picked up by most Members across the Chamber. The first was outlined by Mark Isherwood, who opened today's debate and who, may I add, has done fantastic work in raising awareness of Changing Places toilets, as Members have highlighted, and continues to speak up on disability rights time and time again in this Chamber.
Mark Isherwood highlighted that it is a key to the delivery of the Equality Act 2010, the availability of Changing Places toilets, which go beyond the provision, of course, of standard accessible toilets. These facilities are so important for so many people up and down Wales, with their larger, accessible toilets, with equipment such as hoists, curtains, changing benches and spaces for carers. Staggeringly, as Peter Fox highlighted in his contribution, there are still around just 50 Changing Places in the whole of Wales. Sioned Williams, in her contribution, highlighted that, without these spaces, it can have a detrimental impact on many people who want to go about their daily lives. Many simply just can't do the normal day-to-day activities that so many of us take for granted, or go to those places that so many of us just take for granted and enjoy.
Secondly, I just want to highlight how local authorities and other organisations can work with Welsh Government to ensure that these important facilities are introduced. Carolyn Thomas highlighted examples from her region of those organisations where those facilities are and where it works well, and perhaps organisations where those facilities could and should be. It's also worth highlighting that I know Conwy County Borough Council, when they built their new offices in Colwyn Bay, ensured that the Changing Places toilets were in that building. But that only happened because it happened at the design stage, and that's really important, actually, that it's thought through right at the start of any new building.
As we sadly know, raised by Mark Isherwood, there are some local authorities that are not following the guidance that has been issued. I know, Minister, that you are supporting us here today, and I appreciate all the work that's ongoing, but clearly there are some local authorities that are still not following the guidance that was issued by the Welsh Government. [Interruption.] I thought I had three minutes, Deputy Presiding Officer. You're very kind. I'll try and wrap it up a bit more now as well.
I just want to quickly touch on what our motion is seeking to do. We want the Welsh Government to provide a suitable funding mechanism and clear guidance to local authorities to ensure there is equitable provision of Changing Places toilets in every county in Wales. I certainly appreciate the comments made by the Minister and her support for this motion here today. I again thank all Members for their constructive contributions and call on all Members to support our motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Again, I've heard no objections. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Building Safety Act 2022

Item 9, the second Welsh Conservative debate, on the Building Safety Act 2022. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion.

Motion NDM8127 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
Calls on the Welsh Government to work with all political parties in the Welsh Parliament to facilitate a prompt enactment that incorporates sections 116 to 125 of the Building Safety Act 2022 into Welsh law to strengthen residents’ rights in Wales.

Motion moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Welsh Labour would have you believe that they are working incredibly hard to ensure those buildings affected by the cladding issues are safe, and I'm sorry, Members, but this is simply not the case. As of last month, only 68 of 163 buildings had received intrusive surveys. Over five and a half years on from the Grenfell Tower fire, the fact that leaseholders are still stuck at the survey stage is simply unacceptable. Leaseholders are facing rising insurance costs due to the high-risk profile of the buildings. One couple have claimed insurance costs have risen from £67,000 to £624,000 per year, an increase of 831 per cent.
Minister, your Government, you, have received £60 million in capital and £1.7 million in revenue from the UK Conservative Government for cladding remediation and building safety work. In response to a freedom of information request that asked for the total of money spent on building safety work from the allocation, you've responded with 'nil'. Of the £375 million you've made available to tackling building safety, how much has now been spent, and how many buildings have you made safe?
Failure is what we're also seeing with the leaseholder support scheme. It was disclosed earlier this month that only one applicant is in receipt of independent advice, and three are being taken forward to purchase. We have thousands of victims affected by this, so the stats speak for themselves. You've got to now start focusing on ensuring that the crux of the problems is addressed.
Last April, Rt Hon Michael Gove MP announced for England that major home builders accounting for half of new homes have pledged to fix all unsafe tall buildings they've had a role in developing. Yet, you took until July to even catch up. So, as of today, can you clarify whether Laing O'Rourke, Westmark and Kier—now Tilia—have responded at all? Because I know in one debate, you mentioned that you were having problems interacting and getting engagement and responses from them. Well, I have to be honest, when I write to people, I usually get a response, because I don't let go.
Another area where Wales has fallen behind England is on legal rights, and I think we're all very proud here today to support the Welsh Cladiators section 116 to 125 campaign, which is the gist of the motion by Darren Millar. For example, section 123 enables remediation orders to be made by the first-tier tribunal
'requiring a relevant landlord to remedy specified relevant defects in a specified relevant building by a specified time.'
Section 124 enables orders to be made
'requiring a specified body corporate or partnership to make payments to a specified person, for the purpose of meeting costs incurred or to be incurred in remedying relevant defects'.
And section 126 relates to
'meeting costs incurred or to be incurred in remedying relevant defects'
when a landlord is winding up a company.
Despite me raising the exact points in the motion today with the First Minister on 18 October, a month later, here we are, having to discuss the same problem. There was a hint in his response to me that things could maybe go forward, but I'm still at a total loss as to why we on these benches are having to push you in the way we are. This is inexcusable when considering that the English Building Safety Act is now ready. You could, as is being done for single-use plastics—. When it suits this Welsh Government, you fast-track legislation through this Welsh Parliament, and yet now that is not the case. How much worse must the lives of those trapped leaseholders be before this Welsh Government takes the decisive actions we are calling for?
I know that Members in Plaid Cymru have been supportive of the Welsh Cladiators campaign, as has Jane Dodds, and we are prepared to go to a public meeting on this now and actually meet up and hold this Welsh Labour Government to account. I'm glad the First Minister has arrived to hear the very end of this debate from me. Maybe other Members will make the point: First Minister and Minister, you are failing these people in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'd like to thank Janet Finch-Saunders for presenting this motion today. Let's remind ourselves why we're still debating this issue today, nearly five and a half years after the terrible tragedy at Grenfell. The damning fact is that the current building safety system is a system that has allowed a culture of cutting corners at the expense of public safety.
I'll never forget seeing that tragedy at Grenfell Tower unfold back in 2017. In the early hours of 14 June, a fire began burning through Grenfell Tower, a 24-storey residential block in west London. Seventy-one people died as a result of that fire. Others died months later as a result of smoke inhalation. But many people—those who escaped the fire, the families of the dead, those who witnessed this tragedy—still live with horrific physical and mental scars and continue to suffer today.
Since the disaster, a large number of residential buildings in this disunited kingdom, including several in Wales, have been found to have unsafe flammable cladding while some have other fire safety deficiencies such as poor compartments and firebreaks to prevent the spread of fires within buildings. People are afraid, and people have endured this fear for over five years. Five years without action.
It's been 18 months since the election, a year and a half without action here in Wales. Leaseholders and tenants have been trapped in properties from which they can't move, their quality of life and mental health have deteriorated, and it's high time we responded to this nightmare scenario urgently through a radical reform programme and further financial support.
As my party spokesman on housing and planning, I'd like to take a moment to welcome the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Labour Government. The agreement contains a range of commitments, including commitments to radically reform the existing building safety system and to introduce the second phase of the Welsh building safety fund. I'm glad that we're working together on this vital issue and moving some of the agenda forward.
No-one can truly argue against the sentiment behind the motion today. We all agree that we need to protect residents, and today the Welsh Conservatives are pushing for the incorporation of sections 116 to 125 of the Building Safety Act, as we heard just now from Janet Finch-Saunders, into Welsh law. But I must express a concern around this. Sections 116 to 125 provide leaseholders with the option to take legal action against a developer who is not remediating fire safety defects, but this means that they'd be required to pay legal fees. So, do the Tories think leaseholders should have to pay for issues that aren't their fault?
There's also a fundamental misunderstanding when it comes to legislation too. You can't just parachute pieces of UK legislation into Welsh legislation; there are different frameworks at work. Therefore, legislation must be tailored for Wales, and the UK Act was tailored for England. Some of the 2022 Act applies to Wales, of course, and those provisions were addressed through the legislative consent process, but trying to shoehorn—

Mabon, you need to conclude now, please.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Trying to shoehorn a piece of English legislation into current Welsh law without passing a Welsh Act is not how things should work. But we can't let the Welsh Government off the hook here; it's been a year and a half since the election, and we haven't seen legislation in the area. The Welsh Government can talk of time constraints, a full legislative programme and a lengthy legislative process all they like, but it doesn't change the fact that people have been waiting for support and a response to this issue for guarantees of safety and justice.
We will be supporting the motion today, but let me be clear that we're supporting the principle behind the motion. It's an expression of support for the sentiments behind the motion. We don't think that transporting English legislationinto Welsh law wholesale is the answer. We need our own legislation on the issue, not English legislation made in England, for England. We need legislation—

Mabon, conclude now, please.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: —made in Wales for Wales, as a matter of urgency.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for your patience.

Jane Dodds AS: I thank the Conservatives for bringing this debate here today. I have a very brief period of time, but we do know that, over five years ago, Grenfell happened, with 72 people dying in that. And in the initial findings from the inquiry, only from six days ago, Richard Millett, the counsel to the inquiry, said, 'Every single death was avoidable'. The final report, as we know, is due in October 2023.
Here in the Senedd, we can see the flats affected by poor building safety standards. Many of us, I know—and I know the same is the case with yourself, Minister—have met with those people affected, and in Swansea as well. The arguments for action have been well rehearsed, and we need to see it happen now. I'm not wanting to blame anyone. We need to work together on this to move this forward, to make sure that the people in Wales have the same rights, remedies and protections as leaseholders in England.
Finishing, may I use the words of Richard Millett again? He said in the inquiry, which was only six days ago, after four and a half years of the inquiry, he admitted his initial fears that the process would become a 'merry-go-round of buck-passing'.Unfortunately, he felt that that had been confirmed. I really don't want to see that here in Wales, and I do want to see some action. I look forward to hearing from the Minister later. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Clearly, the Grenfell fire illustrated a failure of building regulations and a failure of enforcement, which all public bodies and private contractors have to bear some responsibility for. It's really unedifying that different contractors are still squabbling over who is responsible and, meanwhile, leaseholders are left in a completely impossible situation.
The Welsh Government has been endeavouring to engage with all the contractors who were involved in building these high-rise buildings in Wales, and it would be useful to know how many have yet to comply with that offer. I appreciate the partnership approach that the Welsh Government is taking, but the question has to be: what do we do about those who simply want to try and avoid their responsibilities and are sitting on their hands and not rectifying the buildings they built, which have been inadequately constructed?
I want to know on the specifics whether the Welsh Government notifies developers when you do a digital survey, and how fast we can expect Welsh Government to move from digital to physical surveys where there are particular issues, particularly of denial. If you do notify developers, are they then the ones charged to notify tenants of the work that the Welsh Government has done, or does the Welsh Government notify tenants directly? If not, how on earth do leaseholders know what's happening if potential rogue developers are simply denying leaseholders the information that they, obviously, are entitled to?

Rhys ab Owen AS: I'm pleased to speak in this debate that calls to strengthen residents' rights in Wales. I'm also pleased that the building safety is a key component of the co-operation agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru.
Following a recent meeting with concerned residents, I tabled a written question to the Minister about enacting sections 116 to 125. The reason those sections haven't been enacted for Wales is because of the late amendments of those sections to the Bill, giving insufficient time to consider the full implications of those sections on Wales—another reason, I would suggest, Minister, why we shouldn't be using the LCM process and we should have our own emergency Welsh legislation, as mentioned by Mabon ap Gwynfor, but that is another argument. You did say in your reply to me that you are considering other legal protections and other options. Could you please expand today on what you mean by that?
I'm also pleased to see the extension of the Defective Premises Act 1972 time period, with regard to addressing redress available to leaseholders when developers no longer exist. How far are you and your officials in coming along with this, and will residents be included in any discussions over this?
While we are debating this very important issue in the Senedd, there are residents just around the corner from the Senedd, in Celestia, who are facing very expensive legal actions against large developers. What support can they receive right now from the Welsh Government? As has been highlighted, these residents have been living in a nightmare for over half a decade. What they need to know now, Minister, is: when will this nightmare come to an end? Diolch yn fawr.

Joel James MS: In my preparation for my remarks today, I was able to speak with a property management company that has quite a number of properties affected by cladding issues in England and in Wales. And though you might not expect this from me, I want to say that they had extremely positive feedback on the application process of the building and safety fund in Wales, and were happy that things were now progressing, and indeed progressing much faster in Wales than in England. Obviously, this is just anecdotal and just the experience of one person in one management company, who is not a leaseholder themselves. But I felt the need to highlight that someone, somewhere, does at least feel that you have done an agreeable job so far in dealing with the complexity of this issue.
However, while it is nice to receive positive feedback, I would like to reiterate, in the strongest possible terms, that there is still a long way to go, and leaseholders are still facing extraordinary circumstances with regard to some properties. As the Minister has previously recognised, unfortunately, there are a lot of people who are caught up in this cladding issue because they cannot sell their properties or remortgage them, which has meant that they are detrimentally exposed to higher interest rates, and they cannot move to larger homes to support a growing family, or move to access better employment opportunities.
Moreover, research has shown that leaseholders are now being exposed to considerably higher service costs, in part due to the increase in insurance and maintenance costs, which in some instances has increased by as much as 600 per cent. This, along with an additional and unprecedented rise in energy bills, means that owning these properties is likely to become unaffordable for many people. And I believe, Minister, that this Government should brace itself, as many leaseholders will likely face repossession as a result.Minister, we must also take into account that many people are still living in buildings that have unsafe cladding. Until these issues are rectified, residents still face the prospect of another catastrophe such as Grenfell, which we all hope and pray will never, ever happen again. Where we are today is a far cry away from when these properties were bought, in good faith, when people were expecting that they would have an affordable and safe place to live. It is disappointing that the situation has deteriorated to such an extent that nine out of 10 affected leaseholders have reported a deterioration in their mental health because of excessive worry and anxiety, with 23 per cent considering self-harm or suicide, and 32 per cent reporting an increase in their alcohol consumption.
The truth is, Minister, that while this Government is responding, and this is welcomed, time is running out for people, and the help identified is going to be, quite frankly, too late for many of them, who not only face the immediate effects of repossession but who will likely face detrimental repercussions for many years to come. Minister, there are thousands of people in Wales who are bearing the brunt of a situation that was not of their making. Therefore, I encourage this Government, with the utmost urgency, to keep the pressure on to remedy this situation as soon as possible, and agree to our motion. Thank you.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much for the opportunity to discuss the important issue of building safety in Wales. As many Members have already mentioned, building safety forms part of the co-operation agreement. Today, Llywydd, the Tories want to focus on sections 116 to 125, and I'm very pleased, Llywydd, that they managed to correct their original error when they tabled the debate. We are, in fact, debating the correct sections today. So, just to be clear, sections 116 to 125 of the Building Safety Act 2022 offer leaseholders in England some protections in having to pay foror limit contributions to the remediation works being undertaken on their buildings. The sections also provide a course of action where leaseholders can take legal proceedings at their own cost against developers who are not prepared to step up to their responsibilities.
The Tory narrative that, for Wales, we should look to England, is just tired. For something as important as the safety of our buildings, it is absolutely essential that we look at the appropriateness and the necessity of sections 116 to 125 in Wales. In making comparisons to the protections available to leaseholders in Wales, we must first understand the scale of the issue. To illustrate this, Llywydd, in England 12,500 residential buildings of 18m and over in height have been identified, compared to around 300 in Wales. The scale of developers operating in this space is also huge in comparison to Wales, with 49 developers currently negotiating formal legal documentation in England compared to 11 in Wales. On this basis, I can understand the complexity and difficulties being faced by our colleagues in England in bringing those responsible to the table. Janet was asking me who has come to the table and who hasn't; I can just recommend that she does actually read the written statements that we put out regularly in this regard.
The situation here in Wales is different. Here in Wales, we have always taken the position that leaseholders and residents in medium and high-rise buildings should not have to pay for fire safety works that are not of their making, and I am as committed to this today as I have always been. This is not just cladding in Wales; this is all of the issues that pertain to fire safety. It's a very important distinction. This is not a limitation on what payments leaseholders should pay. It is a simple premise that leaseholders should not and will not pay for fire safety works that are the responsibility of the developer.
I'm really proud of our approach in Wales to go further to address fire safety issues, taking the needs of the whole building into account, irrespective of whether cladding is present. The work to support leaseholders in significant financial difficulties through our leaseholder support scheme recognises the needs of individual households, and in particular, Joel, I recommend that you have a look at that scheme. We are currently reviewing the eligibility criteria for the scheme, and leaseholders who find themselves in the financial difficulties you outline will be eligible to have their leasehold bought out by the Government.
I'm also proud of the approach that we've taken to working with developers. To date, this has resulted in 11 developers signing up to the Welsh Government's development pact. We are working with one more, as well. The developer's pact is a public commitment that developers will rectify fire safety issues in buildings of 11m and over—not 18m, 11m and over in height—that they have developed over the last 30 years. This provides assurance for leaseholders they will not have to pay for fire safety works they are not responsible for—

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, will you take an intervention on that?

Julie James AC: Yes, of course.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister. I welcome the pact that you've signed with the various developers. I hear what you say—that there are still negotiations with one developer. As I understand it, part of that agreement was that they would have their remediation plans with you within a month of signing that document. Have you received any of those remediation plans, and if you have, have your officials advised you of the robustness of those plans?

Julie James AC: I'm just coming on to that. So, as I was just saying, this provides assurance for leaseholders that they will not have to pay for fire safety works that they are not responsible for, and that the remediation works will be progressed.
In Wales, we've worked with developers to secure this commitment to remediate. Now, this is the bit that answers your question, Andrew. The formal legal documentation that will underpin our developers pact will provide the Welsh Government with the ability to take legal action against developers for breach of the terms of the agreement. The final version of the formal legal documentation is currently being drafted and will include a requirement for developers to provide a schedule and timetable for remediation works to take place, together with monitoring arrangements and a condition that any changes to the timetable are agreed with Welsh Government officials. I expect the formal legal documentation will be agreed with developers in the very near future, and I will, of course, keep Members updated on progress.To just translate that into lay person's speak, once we have the legal documentation in place, then the timetable will start to tick. So we're not quite there yet, but we will be very shortly.
Given that, in Wales, there are a significant number of leasehold properties that fall under the 11m or five-storey thresholds, we also need to consider whether the provisions set out in sections 116 to 125 are suitable for Wales. Practically, the process of making provision equivalent to or similar in nature to sections 116 to 125 for Wales is not straightforward. Doing so would require primary legislation, which is of course more time consuming to prepare and pass than secondary legislation, and additionally, any legislation would need to be tailored for Wales specifically, as currently, 116 to 125 are specifically tailored to the new building safety regime in England, which is not the same as the regime here in Wales. So whilst sections 116 to 125 do provide leaseholders with an option to instigate legal action against a developer who they consider is not remediating fire safety defects that they have created, this could actually make leaseholders liable for the legal costs of doing so.
In Wales, if a leaseholder or resident is concerned that a developer is in breach of the terms of the formal legal documentation underpinning the developer's pact, there will be provision for them to contact the Government and we will, of course, be closely monitoring the agreement. The Welsh Government could then take legal action to enforce the formal legal documentation, so protecting leaseholders from the potential legal costs of undertaking the action themselves.So, just to say in really clear language, we just don't need the sections in Wales. We don't need to limit or provide for a cap on the payments made, because we are going to pay for the works ourselves or the developers are going to pay for them. So, where we have buildings that developers are connected to, they will pay for the remediation works, and where we have the so-called 'orphan' buildings—so, nobody can identify the developer or they've gone bankrupt or out of business—we will pay for it. The leaseholders will not have to pay for it.
Welsh Conservatives are calling on the Government to work together with all political parties. I think I've set out today that we are a Government that is more than happy to do that. We welcome working together in the interests of leaseholders so, of course, Llywydd, we will work with all political parties to ensure leaseholders are protected, but these must be the right protections for leaseholders in Wales, and we believe we have those. Diolch.

Andrew R.T. Davies to reply to the debate.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'd like thank everyone who's participated in the debate this afternoon, and, in particular, the way it set out why we are debating these issues, because of the tragedy that was Grenfell, and the innocence of people who live within many of these properties that are affected by the subsequent fall-out from Grenfell—it's a tragedy for those individuals. And Joel James touched very powerfully on the mental health issues, the abuse of alcohol and other social implications that have befallen these individuals through no fault of their own, but through the trauma of going from having what they believe was their dream home to a liability around their necks and, ultimately, something that had little or no value whatsoever, but, above all, a potential death trap if a fire ensued in any of those buildings, and, obviously, the continuing fear of what might happen.
And that's why I'm a bit mystified by the Minister's response today. Why wouldn't the Welsh Government want to use law to give rights to those individuals so that if they felt able to, under the law, they could seek redress? I do welcome the initiatives that the Minister and the Government have taken to date in working alongside colleagues across the sector to bring the developers to the table, but there are very many certain areas that do need the law to give protection to the individuals affected, such as the special-purpose vehicles that were put in place to build many of these developments but, once the developments were built, those particular companies folded and the liability almost ceased for those developers.If we were to adopt some of these measures in a Welsh Act that would come forward—

Julie James AC: Will you take an intervention, just to be really clear?

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'll gladly do that.

Julie James AC: If there's an orphan building—that's what we call them—where the developer has gone bankrupt and we cannot trace a development company with liability or responsibility for that, then that will be paid for out of the Government's fund, which is considerably more than the consequential we were given.

Andrew RT Davies AC: That is to be welcomed, but if you talk to the residents just up the road from here, there are wider implications around the orphan buildings that the Minister talks of that the residents themselves, through the Cladiators group and other pressure groups that have emanated out of this campaign, want to see enshrined in Welsh law. I accept the point that Mabon makes that we need Welsh law; we don't just need to piggyback on the back of what has gone on in Westminster. I accept that. But we've proven here in this institution before this Parliament that where we need speedy legislation, we can do that: the Agricultural Wages (Wales) Order 2022. I can see Mick Antoniw sitting opposite me, who spoke in that particular debate and championed that particular piece of legislation. And there's also the European continuity Bill that was introduced in a timely manner.
So, whilst we might actually disagree on some of the points, I hope that we don't disagree on the fundamental principle that we should be using the powers of this Parliament to give protection, give rights to citizens of Wales who find themselves on the wrong side of this argument, this debate and need the protection of the law. And, as I said, I do welcome the measures that the Government have put in place to date, but I do find it odd that the Government aren't prepared to actually come here with a piece of legislation we can put through in a timely manner that is Welsh-specific legislation that deals with the Welsh-specific issues.I see there is a difference. Regrettably, the Welsh Government won't vote for the motion tonight, but I do hope that other Members from the opposition benches will combine to actually give approval to the measure today so that it can go forward for consideration. And I hope that Members will support the motion that's on the order paper this evening.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, and therefore we will move to voting time. And unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Voting Time

The first vote is on the Welsh Conservatives debate on the Building Safety Act, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote is tied: 27 in favour and 27 against, and therefore I exercise my casting vote against the motion. The final result was that there were 27 in favour, no abstentions and 28 against and that the motion is not agreed.

Item 9. Welsh Conservatives Debate—Building Safety Act 2022: For: 27, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Presiding Officer used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

11. Short Debate: Horse-racing: An economic and sporting asset for Wales

Our next and final item on today's agenda is the short debate, and I will invite Llyr Gruffydd to present the short debate on horse-racing.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, thank you very much, Llywydd, and I have to say it is a pleasure to bring this short debate before the Senedd today, to take this opportunity to outline and underline the significant contribution that the horse-racing industry makes to Wales not just in sporting terms, but economically too. And I'm very pleased that contributions to this debate will come from Alun Davies, Sam Kurtz, Jack Sargeant and James Evans.
I thought perhaps I'd start by mentioning a little bit about how I came to be interested in the sport, because up until about two or three years ago, I was like a lot of people in this country, in that I wasn't particularly interested and only had a punt on the Grant National every year or so. But that changed during the COVID-19 pandemic. When racing got the green light to resume, behind closed doors, of course, in June 2020, this was the first major sport that returned to our TV screens at a time, of course, when many of us were still living under strict restrictions. As someone who loves watching sport but, as I said, hadn't taken a great deal of interest in horse-racing before then, I did watch the sport at that time and enjoyed doing so. Indeed, I thoroughly enjoyed watching it. That period demonstrated to me the power of sport in terms of entertaining, and certainly I discovered horse-racing at that time too. And, indeed, that very difficult time provided me with a new hobby—something that I have enjoyed exploring and learning more about in the time since then.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Now, it would be remiss of me not to highlight in this speech today the support that the Welsh Government has provided, of course, to the Welsh racing industry during the period of the pandemic. The shutdown of racing for a number of months, and then continued restrictions on crowd numbers, of course, that continued intermittently here in Wales afterwards, all of that put considerable financial strain on the industry, with Welsh tracks, of course, collectively sustaining significant losses, and many of you will be aware that two successive or consecutive Welsh Grand Nationals—our premier race of the year, held at Chepstow—having to be run, of course, behind closed doors. Now, fortunately, the survival of many small and medium-sized businesses within the Welsh racing sector was secured by £1.7 million in grant funding given by the Welsh Government to the industry, on top of other funding streams, of course, such as furlough and relief from business rates. The UK Government clearly played its part in that respect as well, and I know that many across the Welsh horse-racing industry are extremely grateful for the support that they received during what was a very difficult time.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: As a Member for North Wales, of course, my first trip racing, as a new convert to the sport, was to where else but Bangor-on-Dee racecourse within my region, to which I was actually invited by the British Horseracing Authority, along with some other Members of the Senedd, who I'm glad to see are here this evening. The day started, of course, with a trip to Oliver Greenall racing to visit a racehorse training yard, which is something we're not usually exposed to when we see coverage of training. There are over 500 such vital rural businesses across Britain, 20 here in Wales, and, I have to say, you'd struggle to find more hard-working and dedicated people than stable staff. They're up at the crack of dawn, and they work 365 days a year to make sure, of course, that their horses receive the love and the care that they need in order to be at their best on the track. We then, of course, after that visit, went to the racecourse—an experience I would thoroughly recommend to anyone who has yet to go racing, because if you're looking for a day out with a group of friends, or even a family looking for a family fun race day, there is something for everyone—genuinely, something for everyone.
Now, there were over 160,000 visits to Bangor-on-Dee, Chepstow and Ffos Las in the last non-COVID affected year of 2019. That's a significant figure that struck me as something I hadn't realised, I have to say, but, of course, I know now from chairing the cross party-group on horse-racing here in the Senedd that the industry is particularly keen to work with the Welsh Government on expanding that number, given, of course, the huge potential economic benefits this could bring to all parties involved.
I recently had the opportunity to attend the Welsh racing awards, an annual event that recognises the significant achievements by members of the Welsh horse-racing community, both human and equine, and I was thrilled to find out just how successful Welsh-trained or owned horses have been over the past 12 months. We've had major wins at the Cheltenham Festival by the Evan Williams trained Coole Cody, and at Royal Ascot from the David Evans trained Rohaan. Both are positively representing Wales at some of the UK’s biggest sporting events, which are extremely competitive, of course, and involve international competition. Furthermore, David Probert and Sean Bowen are also in the top five jockeys in the country on the flat and over jumps respectively. But, of course, maintaining this success and growing the sector to realise even greater achievements and even more significant economic impacts would also require support from the Government. Now, I’ve been told that horse-racing is the third most followed sport in Wales in terms of attendances, behind football and rugby, but I’m not sure it receives anything like the same recognition in terms of its significance, and certainly in terms of its wider economic contribution.
Now, in racing, prize money acts as the lifeblood of the industry. It helps not only to sustain owners’ critical investment in the industry, on which, I have to say, many don't receive a significant financial return, but it also supports training, businesses and the livelihoods of hundreds of the sport’s participants here in Wales. That also then, of course, drives that broader economic activity through the wider rural economy here in Wales. Owing to a range of factors, including the level of return from betting activity through statutory and commercial channels to the racing industry, racing across Britain faces increasing challenges in achieving competitive levels of prize money. On a measure of prize money per race, British racing now sits behind other major competitor jurisdictions, including Ireland, France, Australia, the United States, Hong Kong and Japan. Now, these competitor jurisdictions are continuing to drive prize money increases, and offering, of course, significant incentives for British owners to relocate their investment. Previous economic modelling has suggested that every 20 racehorses in training deliver around £1 million in direct and indirect economic benefits, so there are real negative economic consequences if there is a contraction in this particular sector.
Now, the UK Government is, by statute, required to review the rate of the horse-race betting levy, currently set at 10 per cent of betting operators' gross profit on British racing. They need to review it by no later than 2024. And this provides a critical opportunity, I believe, for the imbalance in prize money to be rectified. The levy also, of course, provides critical investment in integrity, in training and education and, importantly, in equine welfare. And I'd just like to say a few words about equine welfare, because, through the levy, British racing has spent almost £40 million on funding veterinary science or veterinary education projects aimed at improving the understanding of equine physiology and disease prevention. In March 2019, British racing established a new horse welfare board, independently chaired by Barry Johnson, a former president of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, and with political representation on it as well from Tracey Crouch MP. The horse welfare board has published a comprehensive, five-year strategic plan called 'A life well lived', which was published in 2020, and its publication represents a landmark moment for British racing, providing, for the first time, a single, overarching welfare strategy, building on the many projects already under way across the industry to raise welfare standards and to improve safety levels for horses. Work is currently under way on 17 of the projects recommended by the horse welfare board, and £3 million-worth of funding has been announced today, as it happens, to extend the horse welfare board's work through to 2025.
But, coming back to the horse-race betting levy, I know the Welsh racing industry would very much appreciate any representations that the Deputy Minister can make to her counterpart at Westminster and at the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport to expedite the review to support the industry in Wales. And I'd be very happy to follow up with a briefing on this subject, if the Minister should wish. And I can see her nodding, so I'm looking forward to her contribution even more now later on.
We have a real success story here in Wales when it comes to horse-racing, which isn't always recognised, maybe, as it should be, and I firmly believe there are clear benefits and opportunities for the Welsh Government from engaging constructively with racing here in Wales. And to that end, I was delighted to see that the Deputy Minister visited Chepstow in the summer, and I would be even more delighted if she accepted my invitation for her to join me for a day's racing in Bangor-on-Dee so that she can see what racing in north Wales has to offer as well. [Interruption.] Yes. Other Members can come along as well, yes, of course, of course. But I would urge the Minister and her Government to continue to proactively engage with and to support the Welsh racing industry, as there will be clear benefits in so many ways.
So, I thank you once again, Llywydd, for the opportunity to bring this debate forward. I very much look forward to other Members' contributions and to the Minister's response on this vital and successful industry for Wales. Diolch.

Alun Davies AC: I was one of those lucky people to back Norton's Coin at 100:1 in the 1990 Cheltenham Gold Cup. Unfortunately, I wasn't in Cheltenham—I was in Bangor—but it's fair to say we had a very good night on the basis of that 100:1 shot, and it helped me fall in love with the sport. I've just booked my ticket for the Tingle Creek meeting in Sandown at the beginning of December, and I will be taking my son to Chepstow for the Welsh National after Christmas. I took him during half term, actually, and, if any of you are looking for tips, I would ask Rhys rather than his father, because he picked three winners and I didn't pick one. But it's a great sport and we've heard from Llyr how the sport is investing in itself to grow and build that success. And what that sport needs in order to grow that success, of course, is that support from Government and from others. We're very lucky. I see Chepstow as my local track in Gwent, and we're very lucky to have the development of Ffos Las across in Carmarthenshire. And I've never visited Bangor-on-Dee, so I'm looking forward to Llyr extending the invitation to us to join him and the Minister, and the Presiding Officer no doubt, in Bangor-on-Dee so we can repeat the success of Norton's Coin and other great horses—Moscow Flyer, Kauto Star, Earth Summit and the rest of it. I'll finish with remembering Dream Alliance, when Dream Alliance was able to win the national in 2009. And, of course, the film of that great adventure won so many awards at the Welsh British Academy Film Awards earlier in the autumn. So, it's a great industry, it's a great success, and it's something that we can all enjoy and celebrate, and I'm sure that the Minister will lead us in those celebrations. Thank you.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful for the Member giving me time in his debate, because it is vitally important that, as someone who grew up riding horses—not as proficiently as a certain Member of Parliament who's taking a vacation in a certain jungle at the moment—I was one of those who was out mucking out horses et cetera, and I understand the industry; it's absolutely alive and well in the rural parts of our constituencies. And it's where, through the love of point-to-point racing, at Lydstep in my constituency—. That's the breeding ground for a lot of these jockeys who go on to be incredibly successful. I know Llyr mentioned in opening one certain Pembrokeshire jockey, Sean Bowen, who I was in school with—he's a few years younger than me and a few stone lighter also—but I'd also pay testament to Alan Johns, a good friend of mine, who is another Fishguard school alumni, so there must be something in the water in Abergwaun that we're delivering so many high-class jockeys.
But it's definitely a case that I don't think we celebrate those who are doing so well in horse-racing as we do, potentially, some other sports starts that we have in Wales. And we have an abundance of those being successful in this field of competition. So, I pay testament to them, pay testament to all those grooms who work hard, and the stable liveries around Wales, making sure that we are punching above our weight when it comes to horse-racing. And I think it's excellent that we've been given an opportunity this evening, this afternoon, to pay testament to that, and I'm grateful to the Member for that. Diolch.

Jack Sargeant AC: Unlike my good friend Mr Davies, I did not have the bet in 1990 on the 100:1 winner, as I was yet to be born. But I will say that I do share Alun's connection with his family in terms of my passion for horse-racing. Mine came through my mum's father, Grandad Jim, so I speak with genuine interest in the future of the industry, and I think the best way to secure that future is to continue to have a strong focus on animal welfare. Members will be aware of the current petition going through the Petitions Committee surrounding greyhound racing, and I won't say anything specific about that report, or make any opinions on the committee, but we should note the progress made by the horse-racing industry, in particular, to animal welfare. I won't repeat the points the chair, Llyr Gruffydd, has already said, but I will share my personal opinion, when I say I think there are significant differences between the two industries there.
But I thank the Member. I see, Llywydd, that we're running close to the time limit there. I thank the Member for bringing this debate forward. I thank him for his chairing of the cross-party group. It's an important industry to Wales, both economically, but also as family fun days, as you suggest, and I'm very much looking forward to being in Bangor-on-Dee with you all. Diolch.

James Evans MS: I can see we're over time, so I'll be as short as I can. Horse-racing for me has been a lifelong passion. My mother was an avid horse-rider, my grandmother was an avid horse-rider, and my great grandmother rode horses right until her ninetieth birthday, so I've had a great interest in this sport from a very young age. Unlike other Members, I'm sure, like Jack Sargeant, I don't tend to win a great deal, because I'm quite an unlucky person in that way. But I would just like to say, on Llyr Gruffydd's point, the £3 million that's been invested today in the welfare of our race horses is extremely important, and I know the British Horseracing Authority do a great deal of work recognising how important animal welfare is in this industry. And I think it does need to be highlighted again, that the industry really cares about these race horses; they love them, they care for them, because they are their family. That's what a horse is to a lot of these people.
And I'd just like to pay a personal tribute to Sheila Lewis in my own constituency for the fantastic training she does of race horses, and congratulate her on her most recent win in Cheltenham in October. And thank you very much to the chairman of the horse-racing cross-party group for his fantastic chairing, and also to the Members who make it one of the, I think, best cross-party groups in the Senedd.

The Deputy Minister to reply to the debate, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you, Llyr, and everyone else, actually, who's contributed to this afternoon's short debate. There's no doubt at all that the horse-racing industry contributes significantly to the Welsh economy and provides employment across many different areas, from stable help to hospitality. And as Llyr pointed out at the beginning of his contribution, it's the sport with the third highest rate of spectator attendance after football and rugby, which surprised me, I have to say. An estimated 155,000 individual visits across the three racecourses in 2019, and high-profile events such as the Welsh Grand National in Chepstow will be held this year on 27 December, and I'm sure many of us will look forward to that. It's amongst the jewels in the crown of sporting activities in Wales, and of course it's going to be covered live on tv.
As everybody else seems to have given a few anecdotes about their visits to racecourses and their connections with racing, I suppose I ought to give mine as well. Can I say I absolutely thoroughly enjoyed my visit to Chepstow earlier in the year? They did offer me an invitation to go to the other two racecourses while I was there, and I'm happy to do that at some point. I had the opportunity while I was there to present the winners with prizes, to choose the best turned-out horse that came out from the stables. I even did a live tv interview with Sky Sports, who were there filming the races at the time, and I just— . Sorry, Darren. Of course.

Darren Millar AC: Is it okay, with your indulgence? I know it's not normal in short debates to take an intervention.

Do you know, I haven't done a short debate in a while—I can't remember what's normal. [Laughter.] But, in the spirit of the debate—in the spirit of the debate.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you very much. I'm delighted to hear of all of the interest in horse-racing in the Chamber today. I'm blessed to have in my own constituency, in the community of Towyn, the only harness-racing track in Wales, and I would like to invite you, Deputy Minister, to join me for a night at the races in Towyn—and everybody else in the Chamber—in order that you can come and see the delight that it brings to many people. Will you join me in visiting Towyn's harness-racing track, at Tir Prince in Towyn?

Dawn Bowden AC: I absolutely would, yes, and presumably you'll be paying for all the bets, Darren.

Darren Millar AC: No. [Laughter.]

Dawn Bowden AC: But can I also just tell another very, very short anecdote? Those of you who are as old as me will remember the 1992 Grand National. I was in hospital, having my eldest son at the time, and the 1992 Grand National was in April, and the winner was Party Politics, and it was five days before the general election of 1992, and I bet on Party Politics, just because it was the general election, and Party Politics actually won the Grand National that year, and we left hospital with my son, and the first place that my son ever visited was a polling station on the way home. But, anyway, those are my racing anecdotes.
There have been some outstanding recent Welsh successes for jockeys and trainers, both over the jumps and the flat, over the last couple of seasons. Many of these fantastic performances were recognised at the horse-racing awards earlier this month, and you mentioned David Probert, who was the flat racing jockey of the year, having ridden over 150 winners in the past 12 months, and also the national hunt trainer of the year, Evan Williams, who achieved 53 winners and won over £900,000 in prize money in the last year.
But, of course, horse-racing, like other sports, has faced very challenging times over the last couple of years, and that was why we did create the spectator sport survival fund, to help sports that are reliant on spectators, such as horse-racing, to offset the COVID-related loss of income, and the scheme was well received. Again, as Llyr pointed out, the three Welsh courses received something like £1.7 million of funding from Welsh Government to get them through that period during the pandemic.
But I also know that trainers continue to face challenges, when trying to grow and expand their businesses, with issues such as planning permission and business rates, and I'm aware that the industry is putting together a proposal for the Welsh Government to consider what further support we could provide for trainers, and I very much look forward to seeing that proposal and considering what's in it.
I also think it's fair to say that the industry can only thrive if it has a strong regulatory framework to underpin it, and that is of course the British Horseracing Authority, as the recognised body responsible for the regulation of horse-racing, and I'm aware that the BHA has recently strengthened its governance structures, and hopefully that will place greater emphasis on horse welfare, supporting people in the industry and addressing issues around equality, diversity, inclusion, corporate social responsibility, social licensing and environmental sustainability.
Now, like others have also mentioned, we do of course recognise the issues and the concerns around animal welfare, and that is of course of paramount importance in ensuring the continued success of the industry. Horse-racing in Britain is seen by many as among the world's best regulated animal activities. And, together with the RSPCA and World Horse Welfare, the BHA is a leading signatory of the national equine welfare protocol. And there's at least one BHA veterinary officer on duty at every race meeting, whose responsibility it is to oversee horse welfare and ensure that the standards laid down by the BHA are maintained. Because race horses, like all domestic captive animals, are also afforded protection under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and under this legislation, it is an offence to cause any unnecessary suffering to an animal or for an owner or keeper to fail to provide for its welfare needs. The Welsh Government's code of practice for the welfare of equines explains what needs to be done to meet the standards of care the law requires, which includes the equine's environment, behavioural needs, health and welfare. And policy officials work alongside the animal health and welfare framework group on the revision of the codes, with the revised code for horses coming into force in November 2018.
And I know, as again Llyr has pointed out, there are concerns about what the industry is doing to support issues around problem gambling. Because although the UK Government announced its review of the Gambling Act 2005 in December 2020, as we've heard, the progress on publishing that White Paper seems to have stalled. And I'd be more than happy to work with anybody who will press for the UK Government to move on this, because it is a very important piece of work. But can I be absolutely clear that I support the industry in the efforts that it is making to support the minimising of gambling-related harms, with very simple measures, such as siting cash machines away from the betting counters or bookmakers, so that anyone who uses the ATM must cease betting in order to do so. Other measures are aimed at ensuring that gambling is conducted in a fair and open way, by ensuring that all operators in attendance have a valid operator's licence issued by the Gambling Commission, and any illegal bookmakers or bookmakers operating improperly are removed from the premises.
So, to conclude, Llywydd, it's by providing these reassurances to members of the public and those on animal welfare grounds and the governance of sport that we will allow horse-racing to continue to grow and flourish in Wales. And with the support of everybody in this Chamber, I'm absolutely certain that that is what will happen. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, all. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

And I'll just ask: who is organising the bus to Bangor-on-Dee and Tir Prince?

Dawn Bowden AC: We'll have a charabanc outing.

A charabanc, yes. Diolch yn fawr.

The meeting ended at 18:32.

QNR

Questions to the Economy Minister

Carolyn Thomas: What support does the Welsh Government provide to help people into public sector careers?

Vaughan Gething: Through services such as Working Wales and Careers Wales, we provide a range of opportunities to support people into careers within the public sector. These include activities such as jobs fairs and careers interviews, as well as apprenticeships.

Andrew R.T. Davies: What assessment has the Minister made of the decline in passenger numbers at Cardiff Airport?

Vaughan Gething: We are working closely with Cardiff Airport regarding its recovery from the pandemic. The Airport provides the Welsh Government with quarterly reports for us to monitor
their performance. The Airport is on track to exceed the 700,000 number of passengers forecasted by the end of this Financial Year.

Huw Irranca-Davies: What assessment has the Minister made of the impact on the local and Welsh economy of Sony UK Technology manufacturing operations based in Pencoed?

Vaughan Gething: Sony is a significant local employer and is an example of the benefits that inward investors can bring to our economy. Their Incubator Centre is home to around 29 tenant companies with around 228 employees. The Welsh Government has supported the plant throughout its time here and continues to do so.

Peredur Owen Griffiths: What support is the Government providing for businesses in South Wales East who are still feeling the effects of the COVID pandemic?

Vaughan Gething: We will continue to support businesses to grow and thrive post pandemic throughout Wales with our partners and stakeholders as set out in our Regional Economic Frameworks.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Sam Rowlands: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of NHS staffing levels in North Wales?

Eluned Morgan: NHS staffing levels in North Wales are now at record levels, but we recognise that there are workforce challenges alongside significant demand pressures on services.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing

Sian Gwenllian: What support is available for women in Arfon who experience maternity-related mental health problems?

Lynne Neagle: There are now specialist perinatal mental health services in every health board area in Wales, supported by over £3m of mental health service improvement funding annually. A condition of this funding is that health boards are required to work towards meeting the relevant Royal College of Psychiatrists’ quality standards.